God vs. the Devil

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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The events of this week got me thinking about a lot of things, namely, the VT shooter, his mental state, etc.

Most of us were raised to believe in something, God, Devil, Higher Power, or nothing. I personally, was taken to a Presbytarian church, where I would play with other kids, while mom and dad attended the sunday services. At about 8 years old, we, my brother and two sisters, began going to sunday school. I remember it was fun. The teacher taught us all about the beginning of life on this earth, about Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, Moses, etc. It was really, really fun. The illustrations and the coloring books made time fly, while mom and dad were in their sunday services.

The next year, all of us kids went to sunday school, then when it was over for that day, we were picked up by our parents, and taken to attend the regular sunday church services. We learned about Jesus, Faith, etc. I think the most important lessons learned there, had nothing to do with God or Jesus, but those were lessons about how we should treat each other, our fellow men and women. I learned about how to treat people with respect. I learned how to say "yes sir, and yes maam" Somewhere in there, I was taught to know the difference between right and wrong. Ultimately, I feel I developed a moral compass.

So, these past few days have left me questioning everything I have been taught. Those questions are:

What sense of moral compass did that young man have, when he executed 32 people, then himself, at VT? Apparently, there was no fear of God, or the Devil. Fear of one or the other, is what keeps many people on a fairly straight path.

What if, physical death is not really the end of our lives?

What if we have to be accountable for what we have done, as mortals?

Those thoughts scare the crap out of me, and probably have kept me from doing things I could have easily done, but chose not to, because of some consequences I believe will happen to me. I simply can't imagine, when your heart goes so dark, that life does not matter, to the extent that you are willing to take a handful of lives, including your own.

The world is getting very unpredictable, yet very angry. Someday we are all gonna need each other. I sure wish we'd stop killing each other. :(

Anyway, friends, this is about as pure of heart as you have seen, or will ever see, from me, on an internet forum. :)
 

Beev

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2006
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Well, I'm an atheist, and I don't really fear being dead. I fear dying a little, as I don't know the suffering involved with it. However, I still have the ethics and morals to not physically harm another person.
 

RichUK

Lifer
Feb 14, 2005
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It?s a prime example why you shouldn?t have guns readily available in the US.

In the UK you?re looking at a minimum of 5 years if caught in the possession of a fire arm. This helps deter gun crime (a lot).

I personally don?t agree with the US gun laws.

P.S. Unfortunately I haven?t watched the news as of late (been too busy), so I?m not fully up to speed on the shooting in America.
 

zixxer

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2001
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Originally posted by: RichUK
It?s a prime example why you shouldn?t have guns readily available in the US.

In the UK you?re looking at a minimum of 5 years if caught in the possession of a fire arm. This helps deter gun crime (a lot).

I personally don?t agree with the US gun laws.

P.S. Unfortunately I haven?t watched the news as of late (been too busy), so I?m not fully up to speed on the shooting in America.

That's ridiculous.
 

Flyback

Golden Member
Sep 20, 2006
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Humans always have been and always will be destructive. It's what we do.

Don't think in terms of polar opposites (good vs bad). We're shades of gray and you'd be kidding yourself to think otherwise.

Look at the Nazis for example (yes, yes, I invoked them). People try and vilify them as non-human. They were just as normal and psychologically sound as you or I. We're all capable of such acts deep down.
 

RichUK

Lifer
Feb 14, 2005
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Originally posted by: zixxer
Originally posted by: RichUK
It?s a prime example why you shouldn?t have guns readily available in the US.

In the UK you?re looking at a minimum of 5 years if caught in the possession of a fire arm. This helps deter gun crime (a lot).

I personally don?t agree with the US gun laws.

P.S. Unfortunately I haven?t watched the news as of late (been too busy), so I?m not fully up to speed on the shooting in America.

That's ridiculous.

What is?
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Sraaz
Well, I'm an atheist, and I don't really fear being dead. I fear dying a little, as I don't know the suffering involved with it. However, I still have the ethics and morals to not physically harm another person.

But you got your ethics and morals from somewhere. Could you imagine not caring about what you do, or did? That's scary to me.

My post is not about Christianity. ;) If you are an atheist, fine.

 

Luthien

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2004
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The world has always been very unpredictable and very angry and vice versa it only ebbs and flows when it affects you personally.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
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I'd like to believe that a person becomes this extreme based on their life experiences. You can believe in the devil and god but eventually something will push you hard enough and far enough that it all breaks down. You no longer care where you go, or what happens to you, only that you are finally given payback for what you feel are all the wrongdoings in your life. But I don't know the VT killer, and I may be giving a psychopath too much credit. Maybe everyone treated him nicely and he snapped for no good reason. It makes sense in my mind to think people were sh!tting on him day in and day out until he snapped. But that may not even be true. Perhaps that is just how I make sense of it all in my mind.

Perhaps sanity is just a measure of how much it takes to break a person. We all snap, he just snapped at something ridiculously small. When you really hit your breaking point, I don't think your religion matters at all. If you don't care enough to live, why would you care enough about where you go afterwards? An athiest believes that there is nothing after death, which means shooting yourself in the head is forfeiting anything you were entitled to. Even someone going to hell has more of an existence to look forward to.
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
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If you follow the rules of the books (whatever religion you want to be), you are probably already going to hell. I don't know anyone who has not committed a SIN.
My point is I don't think religion plays a part on a person's character. People do what they want to do regardless of what their religion/faith says. Many people find religion when they are in prison. When they are released many usually go back to their old habits (?).

A person's character is usually the result of their upbringing. In this case, I think the shooter had a horrible childhood.
I personally was raised with zero religion. I learned about the different religions on my own when I was in my 20s. Before that I was so clueless I got my Jewish girlfriend a cross for a gift... I just live my life the way I see fit. The way my parents raised me.

Good people come from good families - Usually
Bad people come from bad families -Usually
, When I say bad I don't mean bad people. I mean family structure understanding, support, and love.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Aimster
If you follow the rules of the books (whatever religion you want to be), you are probably already going to hell. I don't know anyone who has not committed a SIN.
My point is I don't think religion plays a part on a person's character. People do what they want to do regardless of what their religion/faith says. Many people find religion when they are in prison. When they are released many usually go back to their old habits (?).

A person's character is usually the result of their upbringing. In this case, I think the shooter had a horrible childhood.
I personally was raised with zero religion. I learned about the different religions on my own when I was in my 20s. Before that I was so clueless I got my Jewish girlfriend a cross for a gift... I just live my life the way I see fit. The way my parents raised me.

Good people come from good families - Usually
Bad people come from bad families -Usually
, When I say bad I don't mean bad people. I mean family structure understanding, support, and love.

Thanks Aimster. I did not know much of your back ground until now. I always assumed (my mistake) that you were something else. Sorry about that.

 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: skace
An athiest believes that there is nothing after death, which means shooting yourself in the head is forfeiting anything you were entitled to. Even someone going to hell has more of an existence to look forward to.

LOL, an eternity of torture vs. an end of consciousness - I'd bet most would pick the latter.
 

Allanv

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May 29, 2001
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I too was thrown up and Religion wasnt part of our lifes, this holds true for a good percentage of the UK. The stiff upper lip mentality is prefered to looking up and hoping. But thats just us.

my childhood memorys consist of only bad ones. I imagine there were good times but most of my childhood is blocked out, i havent and do not want to have any part of my Relitives lives for the past 11 years yet they live 1/2 a mile from me.

Am i a bad person NO. I work hard sometimes 7 days a week and well into the night i am married with no kids but thats our choice.

I do fear dying but i am fully aware that when i do unless i go up in smoke then i am worm food. There is nothing else. But again those are my thoughts
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Allanv
I too was thrown up and Religion wasnt part of our lifes, this holds true for a good percentage of the UK. The stiff upper lip mentality is prefered to looking up and hoping. But thats just us.

my childhood memorys consist of only bad ones. I imagine there were good times but most of my childhood is blocked out, i havent and do not want to have any part of my Relitives lives for the past 11 years yet they live 1/2 a mile from me.

Am i a bad person NO. I work hard sometimes 7 days a week and well into the night i am married with no kids but thats our choice.

I do fear dying but i am fully aware that when i do unless i go up in smoke then i am worm food. There is nothing else. But again those are my thoughts

Worm food, or not, we should live better while we are alive. We only get one pass, so make the best of it. Actually, my sister believes that whatever we accomplish now, is related to up to 5 of our previous lives, and how we were in them. She believes if we are suffering now, we created our own consequences, back when we were rich and walked all over people, as an example. :laugh:

Should she be committed now, while there is a chance? ;)

 

Luthien

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
Originally posted by: skace
An athiest believes that there is nothing after death, which means shooting yourself in the head is forfeiting anything you were entitled to. Even someone going to hell has more of an existence to look forward to.

LOL, an eternity of torture vs. an end of consciousness - I'd bet most would pick the latter.

Amen, to that bunnyfubbles. QFT
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
LOL, an eternity of torture vs. an end of consciousness - I'd bet most would pick the latter.

Someone might believe they would be rewarded in hell for being exceptionally evil. Or perhaps they'd be spared after some time. Or maybe that they'd somehow end up in pergatory instead of hell. There are a multitude of possibilities. But there is only 1 with athiesm and that is nothingness. And that is a powerful thought if you really think about it. The end of existence, if that doesn't make you weigh the choice of killing yourself then I don't know what will.

Edit: Besides, most of my catholic teachers in school didn't even teach the whole "hell is an eternity of torture" but that hell was simply a place devoid of god and with overwhelming emptiness and sadness. But it is still an existence and beings adapt to their environment.

The eternity of torture is perpetuated by Dante's Inferno and the like. It is basically the do-gooders wishful thinking on where they HOPE bad people go.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: skace
Originally posted by: bunnyfubbles
LOL, an eternity of torture vs. an end of consciousness - I'd bet most would pick the latter.

Someone might believe they would be rewarded in hell for being exceptionally evil. Or perhaps they'd be spared after some time. Or maybe that they'd somehow end up in pergatory instead of hell. There are a multitude of possibilities. But there is only 1 with athiesm and that is nothingness. And that is a powerful thought if you really think about it. The end of existence, if that doesn't make you weigh the choice of killing yourself then I don't know what will.

skace, while I appreciate your views, this is not really a thread about religion, but more my pursuit of what makes people think like they do. While I cited my religious experiences, while growing up, they do not define who I am today.

I so, do not want this thread to get cyber-jacked into a religious beliefs thread. :)

 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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Anyone who needs a fear of God or Satan to keep them in line has no real morals. They have fear.

I personally believe in the Christian God and Jesus. If there is life after death... meh. I'll cross that bridge when I get there. No one on this Earth is even remotely good enough to get into heaven based on merit. I don't intend to try.

If we are accountable for what we have done as mortals, then I will do my best and speak what I believe to be right. My justification is that I like to think I am open to persuasion if I see fit. God is just. I believe I am just in many ways. If God can give me a just reason to atone for my actions that satisfies my non-religious morality (which he supposedly can) then I'll atone for them.

I have no fear of death, I have no fear of hell, I have no fear of not getting into heaven. I figure that if God is just, he will hopefully let me in by the time my life is over. If not, then I'll survive in whatever existence exists after life. By most definitions, I'd be joining such distinguished company as Mark Twain and Winston Churchill.

A good quote to summarize my beliefs:

I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and by what you decide to do everyday, will make you a good man? or not.
-Hospitaler, Kingdom of Heaven.

My morality is half-logic, half religion. I do not accept a 2000 year old word that was written for 2000 year old people. Only a direct command from God could directly and instantly change the course of my beliefs, and no burning bushes fell on my balls while I was asleep, so nothing yet :)
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
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Uhh, my original post was less than 1% about religion, they just decided to pick one piece out.

Like I said, "When you really hit your breaking point, I don't think your religion matters at all. If you don't care enough to live, why would you care enough about where you go afterwards?"
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: skace
Uhh, my original post was less than 1% about religion, they just decided to pick one piece out.

Like I said, "When you really hit your breaking point, I don't think your religion matters at all. If you don't care enough to live, why would you care enough about where you go afterwards?"

Your last sentence, is ultimately my question. How deranged do you have to be, that when you decide it's over for yourself, you take all those people with you? What if there is someone of higher capacity, who makes you live in that moment?
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
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Well since I already spouted my beliefs, in answer to the OP:

In 8th grade, my family moved to a completely different location (different culture, rural vs close-to-urban-suburban, different state). I hated it. I mean hardcore, raw, cold hate. They knew I hated it. I had no friends, and I had not yet developed the social skills to make new ones among said culture. I was so full of hate that I scared half of them away anyways. Over the next few months I started having random tantrums from my anger. Basically I just through things around my room and called my parents various variations of "a$$hole", but once I almost struck my dad (intentionally), and they had to threaten to call 911 to calm me down. After the 4th episode a few months later, my thoughts got twisted. I literally thought of re-creating columbine. Fortunately I never had the will to go through with any of it, but that night, I literally pulled out my Leatherman, held the blade to my throat and thought "one swipe, a minute of dulling pain as the brain asphyxiates, and it's all over". Some rational part of me finally won out, and I put down the knife and laughed like an insane person. Coincidently, my displays eventually promptly my parents to move back to our old neighborhood.

That ranks among the most dark moments of my life, and in retrospect it would've been one of the biggest mistakes of my life (and possibly the last). But it's amazing what hate does to a person. I'm now a freshman in college, my quality of life has spiked, and although I still consider my parents a$$holes (for entirely different reasons), I would never go after innocents for any reason. But I have some inkling about how these people think (and trust me, it makes no logical sense unless you're in their head). The fact that I once though of doing the same scares the crap out of me.
 

tealk

Diamond Member
May 27, 2005
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Lord give my fellow friends peace and a love for you as they speak of this event. Help them be focused on the truth in your word. Bless and be with them as they speak! Amen.