God does not Exist: Therefore there is no self to pity, hate, defend, or feed.

[flexy]

every single messenger that came starting from Adam have one clear message that there is no God but the one true God. he has no children or spouse. he is also not a human.

The creator has given humans free will and choices so that is the world right now is the way it is based on our own choices.
either we follow him or we don't .
based on that people will be judged.
It is humans who cause their own suffering. HIV is from humans too. The creator did not give that to people like you say.

If he/she/it is a "creator", but then folks conveniently say he did NOT create "bad" things, so what did he create then?

* did he/she/it create diseases?
* did he/she/it create parasites?
* did he/she/it create bacteria, virii etc.?
* (etc.)

The "creator" idea, while I don't actually reject it, not even the idea of a "god" entity ..but the creator idea and then being VERY selective and claim he/she/it created this and that as long as it's "convenient" and then say he/she/it however did not create other things...doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You can't say god created humans, or birds...but claim he did create diseases or parasites.

***

"complicated can just happen on its own"

As said, I do not reject the idea of a god entity, however this is flawed logic...so is the entire rejection of evolution.

So we have millions of neurons, sense, touch etc.
So have my cats. So has a fish. So has a bacterium.

So..god MUST have created my cats as well. And give them a purpose. He must also have created fish, algae, plankton, insects, fleas etc...and of course each individual must have a purpose as well.

Because if you say we have a purpose (which WELL may be) and reject that a flea has purpose (or each single fish or amoeba swimming in the ocean, from billions)...this would not be very consistent. And of course each plant, flower, grass etc. would also have to have a purpose. They're also relatively "complex".

** As for "complexity" and uniqueness and "what are the odds" (common argument of anti-evolution folks)....if I take a glass and throw it on the floor, it will break in 10000s of little pieces and create a very UNIQUE and complex pattern which is absolutely unique it can only happen once.

From a "backwards point of view" I could analyze the pattern of the thousands of shards on the floor and conclude this is "impossible" since (BEFORE the glass broke) there was an infinitely small chance that exactly *this exact* pattern was created. I could conclude that this exact pattern is impossible and must be "godly".

This posting here too, in its arrangements of words, letters etc. is absolutely unique and there was nothing like it before. "Mathematically", just 20 minutes ago the odds for this message to exist, with it's exact arrangement of letters/words etc. was pretty much zero. And yet, it exists.

** Ok, back to god.

Religions, and then of course folks, like you, come often across as if to know god.
How?
How to you know the reality/purpose of god?
This is why I reject basically ALL western mainstream religions because their idea of this god is ridiculous.

IF there is god entity, I don't think we can/are able to grasp it, I personally don't even think that a god must be an "entity" in this sense, aka different from us.

I am tending toward the idea that WE are actually one aspect of this god "entity", in the same way possibly as a leaf is a part of a tree. From that point of view the notion that god is "all there is" and this includes us...makes sense, sort-of like an "universal consciousness"...which "is" in every aspect of the universe. So he/she/it doesn't have to be an "entity" in this sense....and for sure nor a personalized "individual" like most Western religions want to make us believe.

** We could even argue whether the term "creation" ie. "creating" is already implying too much knowledge (WHICH WE BY DEFINITION CAN NOT EVEN HAVE) about the purpose of this god entity? "Creation"...you know what creating means, I know what it means. What if this a mere human concept that would make no sense for a godly entity?

It might only make sense *to us* since according to our thinking everything has a beginning and an end, everything must have been created, everything started out at some point. So we conclude...hm..."things have been created"...and of course god created them.

 

[sandorski]

and these same people can't cure any thing of importance like cancer, HIV etc..
you are going to believe them?
every documentary also starts with"we assume" "we believe" "we think"
all assumptions and theories.
evolution is a complete sham. there is no way we an just come to be from a lifeless earth. our brains alone have billions of neurons. our senses, touch, and how everything works in our body.
How can you for even one moment think that something that complicated can just happen on its own.

GTFO, you're just trolling are you not? :\

"Can't cure anything of importance"? What, like Polio, Chicken/Small Pox, TB, broken bones, failed organs, and countless other diseases/conditions. It sometimes can cure Cancer and usually at least holds it back for a time. Cancer and HIV have both come a long way towards seeing a Cure and treatments for both have extended the lives of untold millions.

The sham is who your sources for what Science is, has done, and what it has found.

There is no need to feel overwhelmed with Brains or any other aspect of living organisms when we have concrete Evidence of why they exist as they do. It's not complicated, it doesn't take a designer. Sorry.

 

[sandorski]

some people will never change. they will always believe in what they want.
like I said before, all the messengers chosen by the creator had one simple message. there is no God but the one true God. they all just made that up?

You keep saying this, but it's not true at all. The early books of the Old Testament most certainly "understood" that there were more than 1 god. The best most clear examples of this are in the stories about Moses. From the Staffs turned into Snakes, to the specific plagues relating to various Egyptian gods, they were not a denial of those gods, but were a demonstration of the superior power of the Hebrew god. Later on though is the true acceptance of the existence of other gods, that is when Moses receives the "10 Commandments". The very first command is: You shall have no other gods before me. Even "god" knows there are other gods.

That said, the story of Moses is complete BS and never happened. He may have lived and the story may be based on an actual person, but a lot of creative license was applied to his life. Slavery in Egypt, the Exodus, 1-2 million people wandering in the desert for 40 years, none of that happened. The truth is more likely to be that he was a Tribal Leader who brought together a diverse ragtag group of Tribes with common ancestry, provided them a Code of Laws and enough structure to eventually make them into a Nation. A Founding Father figure. In time his exploits grew larger and larger in terms of how the story was told anyway. Kinda how the Kim Jong's have perfect Golf or Bowling scores, pure propaganda.

 

[Matthiasa]

@SMOGZINN

That list includes many things that are in no way shape and or form cured. Even using the term loosely there are several on that list that are not. With enough time I amsure they will all eventually be treatable but currently that is not the case.

 

[JD50]

Cyberserf,

Can you please provide a list of the diseases that religion and your "one true God" has cured?

 

[Retro Rob]

I have to drop in and say these threads are funny to me now, even knowing how seriously I debated in them. No more.

From the outside now, I can see how silly you (and I) look/looked well knowing there is no way any of us are willing to spend one fraction of a second giving any serious consideration to a contrary viewpoint.

This is especially true of the atheists here since they love to claim "open-mindedness" being wrong.

The DC did have promise at one point I think, but its now nothing more than a trash-heap for close-minded arguing.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It isn't "closed-minded" to reject fallacious arguments and claims not supported by evidence, Rob. Why should those get "serious consideration"? It's not the problem of the atheists that the theists have shitty arguments.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

It isn't "closed-minded" to reject fallacious arguments and claims not supported by evidence, Rob. Why should those get "serious consideration"? It's not the problem of the atheists that the theists have shitty arguments.

I'm an onto-epistemological nihilist Gnostic: I know for certain that nothing is nothing is knowable for certain, particularly degrees of certainty.

This is also certainly the only good and logical gnostic position.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I'm an onto-epistemological solipsist Gnostic. I know for certain that my knowledge is the only knowledge.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I'm an onto-epistemological solipsist Gnostic. I know for certain that my knowledge is the only knowledge.

Sure, sure, but just try convincing yourself of that.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Sure, sure, but just try convincing yourself of that.

Who?

 

[JD50]

I have to drop in and say these threads are funny to me now, even knowing how seriously I debated in them. No more.

From the outside now, I can see how silly you (and I) look/looked well knowing there is no way any of us are willing to spend one fraction of a second giving any serious consideration to a contrary viewpoint.

This is especially true of the atheists here since they love to claim "open-mindedness" being wrong.

The DC did have promise at one point I think, but its now nothing more than a trash-heap for close-minded arguing.

Wrong. My mind was changed over time by many discussions like this. The same goes for many atheists, seeing as most of us were at one point theists that had our minds changed. You are clearly projecting.

 

[omega3]

For those who do not believe in the oneness of the creator then they will certainly go to hell fire. life is short. Do you guys really think humans just came to be from the earth which has no life itself?
our sophistication and design is impossible to just come to be. You people need to wake up before it is too late for you.

Hi Cyberserf,

Here's the deal. People have always wondered about there existance. We're doing it here. So people come up with theories and that's how the bible and other books were written. That doesn't make such a book true ofcourse.

Also, assume somebody somewhere was born without any knowledge about God, so that person would go to hell because he didn't know about God?

So what convincing reasons do you have that what the bible says would be the truth and not something made up by religious leaders in order to have power in society and give people something to believe in?

 

[Charmonium]

Any sufficiently advanced technology evolution is indistinguishable from magic.

 

[cyberserf]

I can't believe how anyone can for 1 minute say that we came to be without design.
that is impossible.
just looks at animals? are they able to make things like we can?
or trees? can they make anything? no
we are able to since we can think beyond just survival.
to make a human being would require such complexity it is beyond us.
so what I am saying is how can all this just happen by itself? it can not.
we are way to complex to have our structure by chance. out method of procreation is even more complex.
science has not figured out even 1% of the information of the universe and to believe them is foolish and ignorance.

The creator said do not pray to idols or any other gods . people were treating dead people as gods and idols in the past and they still do now.

there will always be people who believe in the creator and those who will not.
that is why there paradise and there is hellfire.

one thing I am sure of that everyone will die someday and time is short. no one will take any thing with them expect their good deeds.
if there is nothing after death, no loss, no one is coming back. but if those who believe are the right ones they will be joyous will those who are disbelievers are playing with fire. literally.

 

[sandorski]

I can't believe how anyone can for 1 minute say that we came to be without design.
that is impossible.
just looks at animals? are they able to make things like we can?
or trees? can they make anything? no
we are able to since we can think beyond just survival.
to make a human being would require such complexity it is beyond us.
so what I am saying is how can all this just happen by itself? it can not.
we are way to complex to have our structure by chance. out method of procreation is even more complex.
science has not figured out even 1% of the information of the universe and to believe them is foolish and ignorance.

The creator said do not pray to idols or any other gods . people were treating dead people as gods and idols in the past and they still do now.

there will always be people who believe in the creator and those who will not.
that is why there paradise and there is hellfire.

one thing I am sure of that everyone will die someday and time is short. no one will take any thing with them expect their good deeds.
if there is nothing after death, no loss, no one is coming back. but if those who believe are the right ones they will be joyous will those who are disbelievers are playing with fire. literally.

Not only can it come about without design, it did come about without design.

BS. Many animals make things. Birds make nests, Beavers make their own Homes that both house and provide a water access in and out, many other animals make and use simple tools.

You realize that the concept of Hell was first formulated by a long dead Religion, right? Not only that, but there more than 1 religion that currently exists where Hell is a consequence of not following their religion. So, if Hell does exist, how can you be sure you are not going to it?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Not only can it come about without design, it did come about without design.

This, pedantically speaking, incorrect. Not only is there a design, there are consistent design principles enacted throughout the world, and likely most of the universe. Just because God didn't screw up his design and thus didn't need to intercede outside of that design doesn't mean there is no design.

https://www.spec2000.net/06-basicphysics.htm


But let's be honest Sandorski: You agree that there's a design, but you also disagree with CyberSerf who seems to insist 1) There is a designer and 2) That designer intervened in the standard operating procedures of the design to implement an additional design which lead to life.

And to that point I agree with you on the second mark and think the first mark is so beyond our comprehension that to make a claim of knowing is...

 

[Charmonium]

I don't think anyone in the agnostic, atheist and even most theist camps believe there is any design. Virtually everyone except fundamentalists believe that humans are the product of evolution. The only difference is that many theists believe in a clockwork universe ala Isaac Newton. Specifically that with the big bang and the laws of physics, god predestined that the evolution of man would occur.

But quantum mechanics has shown that the clockwork universe doesn't exist. On the smallest levels, reality itself, at least as we know it, doesn't exist. The subatomic universe REQUIRES that the position of particles is indeterminate, that most events are determined not by cause and effect but probability.

In a clockwork universe, there is no free will unless you inject it deus ex machina style. In that sort of universe, we are all just automata.

So for humans to be the result of design means that god had to step in continuously throughout the history of the universe to nudge things in just the right direction. Think 2001 A Space Odyssey where the black monoliths come to "tweak" the evolution of chimps.

The problem with that is that you don't need god or black monoliths to explain each of the small evolutionary steps that lead to the development of homo sapiens.

The difference in genetics between us and our closest simian relatives is IIRC, less than one percent. It's the reason that we can test medications and therapies on mice and pigs and still have a good idea of how a human will react.

So somewhere in that 1% difference is where human consciousness developed.

 

[sandorski]

This, pedantically speaking, incorrect. Not only is there a design, there are consistent design principles enacted throughout the world, and likely most of the universe. Just because God didn't screw up his design and thus didn't need to intercede outside of that design doesn't mean there is no design.

https://www.spec2000.net/06-basicphysics.htm


But let's be honest Sandorski: You agree that there's a design, but you also disagree with CyberSerf who seems to insist 1) There is a designer and 2) That designer intervened in the standard operating procedures of the design to implement an additional design which lead to life.

And to that point I agree with you on the second mark and think the first mark is so beyond our comprehension that to make a claim of knowing is...

Pedantically? Sure, however I think we both know what he/she means by "design". That is, conscious intent. There is no such thing in our existence.

 

[JD50]

I can't believe how anyone can for 1 minute say that we came to be without design.
that is impossible.
just looks at animals? are they able to make things like we can?
or trees? can they make anything? no
we are able to since we can think beyond just survival.
to make a human being would require such complexity it is beyond us.
so what I am saying is how can all this just happen by itself? it can not.
we are way to complex to have our structure by chance. out method of procreation is even more complex.
science has not figured out even 1% of the information of the universe and to believe them is foolish and ignorance.

The creator said do not pray to idols or any other gods . people were treating dead people as gods and idols in the past and they still do now.

there will always be people who believe in the creator and those who will not.
that is why there paradise and there is hellfire.

one thing I am sure of that everyone will die someday and time is short. no one will take any thing with them expect their good deeds.
if there is nothing after death, no loss, no one is coming back. but if those who believe are the right ones they will be joyous will those who are disbelievers are playing with fire. literally.

Argument from ignorance, God of the gaps, Pascal's wager, did I miss any?

 

[SMOGZINN]

I can't believe how anyone can for 1 minute say that we came to be without design.
that is impossible.

You only think that because your mind is too small to conceive of what might happen in 14 billion years and nearly unlimited space. Given that much possibility we are not all that remarkable.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Pedantically? Sure, however I think we both know what he/she means by "design". That is, conscious intent. There is no such thing in our existence.

Right. But then where did the consistent patterns of our universe come from?

 

[sandorski]

Right. But then where did the consistent patterns of our universe come from?

What we call the Laws of Physics. That's just how the Universe works.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

What we call the Laws of Physics. That's just how the Universe works.

Why?

If existence is random then we should see a nearly infinitely larger number of universes, where the question of "Is the universe consistent" is answered with no.

To be clear: random fluctuations in at the quantum level should eventually produce our universe: but the probably of being a thinking being and living in a universe that's anything as complex as ours is infinitesimal.

This is NOT a post-hoc argument "look at all we want though we must have been guided" it's exactly the opposite: a priori sentient life should emerge infinitely more often in much much less complex universes.

 

[sandorski]

Why?

If existence is random then we should see a nearly infinitely larger number of universes, where the question of "Is the universe consistent" is answered with no.

To be clear: random fluctuations in at the quantum level should eventually produce our universe: but the probably of being a thinking being and living in a universe that's anything as complex as ours is infinitesimal.

This is NOT a post-hoc argument "look at all we want though we must have been guided" it's exactly the opposite: a priori sentient life should emerge infinitely more often in much much less complex universes.

There could be an "infinitely larger number of universes". There is no way to tell at this time, maybe never. That said, Life exists within our Universe and regardless of how many universes may exist, the Probability of it existing in this one is 1.

Our existence within the Universe is consistent with the Laws that exist within it.