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Go for Athlon 64 now (Socket 754) or wait for Socket 939?

Schnieds

Senior member
Jul 18, 2002
518
0
0
Hey All,

I am in the market for a new machine and have decided I am going to go with the Athlon64. I have been waiting for the NForce 250 chipset to be released before making my purchase, however now that I have waited so long I am wondering if I should just keep holding out and get a socket 939 chip when it comes out in a month or two.

At this point I am leaning towards buying on now as soon as a nice NForce 250 motherboard becomes available, which should be next week after CeBit. I don't think that the 939 chips are going to offer any advantages other than upgradability. And as for upgradability, I am thinking that by the time I want to upgrade my CPU I am going to want DDR2 and PCI XPress, so I will get a new motherboard anyways. Thinking of it that way waiting for the 939 doesn't offer any advantage.

Comments / Thoughts / Agree / Disagree ?

Here is the system I am planning. I am going to purchase from MonarchComputers and have them assemble and test so I don't get any dead parts (I usually build by hand, but am sick of having one of the parts not work right and spending hours figuring out which one. =)

Athlon 3400+
Asus NForce 250 MB (unless another NForce 250 performs better than Asus in reviews.)
1 GB PC-3700 OCZ Memory
2x74GB Western Digital Raptors in a RAID0
SoundBlaster Audigy2 ZS
Next-Gen Radeon (Radeon 9700 for now)
120GB 8MB Cache Western Digital HDD (already have)
Coolermaster Wave Case
Enermax Whisper 460W Power Supply
 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
76
the nforce 3 250 has proved to be a disapointment. it is no faster at all, and not all mainboards with it will have pci/agp lock. I would go with socket 754, and a via k8t800 chipset. Socket 754 will be around as long as 939 so no worries there. Go ahead and get it.
 

AIWGuru

Banned
Nov 19, 2003
1,497
0
0
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
27,274
16,120
136
Originally posted by: AIWGuru
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.

I don;t know what flew up your butt, but the last three VIA chipset motherboards I have had are great !! They might have had a problem before, but not recently (3 years ??)

BTW, go for it now... Get an ASUS K8V or ?? not sure what else to recommend, Albatron some people say, MSI some say, but I have had very bad experiences with them (3 times in 3 years)
 

MichaelD

Lifer
Jan 16, 2001
31,528
3
76
Originally posted by: AIWGuru
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.

Ohhhh-kaaaaaayyy. Aside from demurely hinting that he not purchase a Via board...;) WHY exactly should he not purchase what has been shown to be a stable product and have the best numbers?

I am no Via fan. In fact, much like the Jewish People waiting for Jesus, I have been faithfully awaiting the NF3-250. After seeing it's results, I have left the desert and converted to Buddhism. ;)

Sorry for the religious analogies...I couldn't find any other way to put it. :D

Via is coming out with the K8T800 Pro chipset very soon. I would wait and see what that brings. I would imagine that the NF3250 V2.0 boards will be better...but it took NVidia so long to get the first iteration here that I won't be holding my breath for the second!!!
 

nitromullet

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2004
9,031
36
91
Originally posted by: AIWGuruVIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.
What exactly are you trying to say here? Your message just doesn't seem to be clear. :)
 

Schnieds

Senior member
Jul 18, 2002
518
0
0
Yeah... I have heard not to get Via from others to... but no one can tell me why. I have heard that in the past people have had problems with Via, but their current Athlon64 chipset seems good, so why not? Specific info would be greatly appreciated.

Does anyone have any idea when the Via K8T800 Pro is expected to be released? Are they supposed to show it at CeBit? Also, what are they changing from the current Via K8T800?

Thanks for the advice and comments!

Schnieds
 

nick1985

Lifer
Dec 29, 2002
27,153
6
81
Originally posted by: AIWGuru
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.

coming from a guy that bought a 5200.....:beer:
 

BoomAM

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2001
4,546
0
0
Originally posted by: Markfw900
Originally posted by: AIWGuru
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.

I don;t know what flew up your butt, but the last three VIA chipset motherboards I have had are great !! They might have had a problem before, but not recently (3 years ??)
I Agree.
Im still using "ye`old reliable" aka KT133A.
I must have got a lucky board, it does 140mhz stable, and all of the USB problems, audigy & 9700 cold boot problems have not occured for me.

 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
2,811
126
Originally posted by: AIWGuru
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.

You won't use VIA yet you use ECS. OK...
 

MichaelD

Lifer
Jan 16, 2001
31,528
3
76
Schnieds,

Just so you know what everyone is talking about.

A few years ago, Via-chipset-equiped motherboards, specifically the South Bridge, had BAD conflicts with Creative SBLIVE! soundcards. Guess what soundcards 99% of the world was running back then?

[drevil] Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhht.[/drevil]


Suckee performance was common, lockups even more common. Via eventually got much better. I used their KT333 board w/o any issues at all.

Creative however, still sucks. ;)
 

kd2777

Golden Member
Mar 4, 2002
1,336
0
0
Originally posted by: AIWGuru
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.

That's like saying don't get an ATI card because they had bad drivers 4 years ago!!!! (well maybe 3 or 2)
 

AIWGuru

Banned
Nov 19, 2003
1,497
0
0
Originally posted by: Schnieds
Yeah... I have heard not to get Via from others to... but no one can tell me why. I have heard that in the past people have had problems with Via, but their current Athlon64 chipset seems good, so why not? Specific info would be greatly appreciated.

Does anyone have any idea when the Via K8T800 Pro is expected to be released? Are they supposed to show it at CeBit? Also, what are they changing from the current Via K8T800?

Thanks for the advice and comments!

Schnieds


They make a generally shoddy product. It's a problem with the company, not individual products but when you buy from them, it's like playing russian roulette.

I've had some via based systems KT133 (no A) (tons of problems. USB, stability, PCI busmastering) I've had a KT266a which had stability problems [infinite loop] (which were fixed by via's drivers some year after I bought the thing) and now I have a board with an SIS chipset (second SIS chipset - no probs) and I only have 1 problem with this sytem. It's with the one and only VIA chip in the whole thing. The USB 2.0 controller on the pro version of this board. It's very flakey and when I have my remote wonder hooked up to it, it has no range.
My roommate has a dual P3 system with some kind of VIA apollo chipset in it and his AIW 9600 Pro won't even run at AGP 4. The drivers detect the crappy chipset and slow it down. He also WAS plagued by VIA USB bad mojo until he bought an add in NEC USB 2.0 card. He also has compatibilty issues with his soundblaster live platinum and that chipset (PCI busmaster issues) but of course, the same card works fine in his intel system.
Not long ago - maybe two months VIA launched a set of their 4in1s which kind of destroyed any system with an ATI card in it and some nvidia cards. They pulled it within hours but that's some tight quality control right there.

Take a look at the system requirements and read me for C&C Generals and NFSHP2. They both lists problems specific to VIA chipsets and no one else's. That should tell you something.

As you can see, I have a lot of reasons not to trust this company, their QC or development quality. They produce generally inferior products. They might have, right now, the bestest chipset in the world but I won't buy it. You just can't trust the company.

VIA draws a lot of animostiy from people with experience with them. This can be attested to by the number of people in this thread saying: "Everyone says not to buy via..." or "I've never had all of these well known issues..." Of course, there are lucky people who have no problems. Good for them. And they'll always chime in. But, that doesn't make for a generally good quality product.

Re: the person who took a shot at me for buying ECS. It was the only replacement board I could afford locally and it works PERFECTLY! It uses a trusted SIS chipset. Also, I don't advocate anyone buy an ECS board unless they have to. Since I don't advocate it, it's not analogous to what I'm saying here.

Re: the FX 5200. This is a good card. Rock solid stability. Has it occured to you that I don't game with it? Has it occured to you that this is actually the best card for $78Cdn? Has it occured to you that this card will actually support the high end render for longhorn's GUI when it's released? I doubt it.
 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
Super Moderator
Aug 22, 2001
32,056
32,578
146
Originally posted by: dguy6789
the nforce 3 250 has proved to be a disapointment. it is no faster at all, and not all mainboards with it will have pci/agp lock. I would go with socket 754, and a via k8t800 chipset. Socket 754 will be around as long as 939 so no worries there. Go ahead and get it.
I have news for ya pal, if it's as disappointing as this AN50R is I'd be willing to stand in line for a 250 ;)
 

SneakyStuff

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2004
4,294
0
76
My cousin just got a gigabyte VIA mobo, no problems what-so-ever, great board. I don't know why people are so negative about VIA, I was under the impression SiS is the one who made bad chipsets.
 

AIWGuru

Banned
Nov 19, 2003
1,497
0
0
Originally posted by: SneakyStuff
My cousin just got a gigabyte VIA mobo, no problems what-so-ever, great board. I don't know why people are so negative about VIA, I was under the impression SiS is the one who made bad chipsets.

'tween the four 20something nerds in this house, there are two sis systems. No problems with either. (except for the one with the VIA USB 2.0 controller strapped on) SIS has a good rep. There are also three active VIA systems and all three are flaming puss bags of TROUBLE!
The intel chipsetted system works great, as does the nforce 2 one.
Draw whatever conclusion from that you want to.
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.

Hmm if you can`t get a KT133 or KT266A which I`m using at the moment with 11 leaky caps and it`s still stable ,must be user error on your part,the fact remains VIA is equal to nForce counterparts.

Your statement has no grounds period.
 

AIWGuru

Banned
Nov 19, 2003
1,497
0
0
Originally posted by: Mem
VIA = NO!
I'm not kidding.
Don't buy VIA for any reason.
I don't care if it's the most stable, bestest product VIA has ever produced. DON'T BUY VIA.

Hmm if you can`t get a KT133 or KT266A which I`m using at the moment with 11 leaky caps and it`s still stable ,must be user error on your part,the fact remains VIA is equal to nForce counterparts.

Your statement has no grounds period.


HA! I knew that would come up! It always does whenever ANYONE talks down about VIA.
Okay, if it's USER ERROR why is it that these are well known issues that TONS of people have problems with (one poster besides me already listed them) and I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH ANY OTHER BRAND? I mean, if it were user error, I should have these problems with everything, right? Or at least some problems...
but I don't.
Because it's not user error. It's a crappy product.
Congratulations, you have a working product. You played russian roulette and you didn't get the bullet. YOu don't have any USB devices which draw out the flaw. You don't have any PCI devices which use busmaster. Congratulations. You're lucky.
I'm sorry, but VIA is widely regarded as a poor quality brand and the reputation is well deserved. They make a shoddy product.
 

AIWGuru

Banned
Nov 19, 2003
1,497
0
0
Even arstechnica doens't like them:

"You need only look up "VIA 686b" with any search engine to get a picture of the scope of the problems with one aspect of recent VIA-based motherboards; look up "VIA and Sound Blaster Live" and you'll read more woes. Call the tech support department at M-AUDIO.com about USB audio glitches and, hey, it's a known problem with VIA chipsets. They say VIA has even been conferring with them about it.

Look up George's PCI latency patch to see just how deep the problem goes, affecting everything from sound cards and digital video cameras to system freezes and lockup issues when transferring large amounts of data over the IDE bus. In fact, there are glitches galore, most of which can be resolved by diligently updating to the latest patches -- many of the most serious problems involve a component known as a "4 in 1" driver.

USB Glitches
The most commonly reported glitch affects USB peripherals. We've seen cases where a Microsoft SideWinder 2 joystick seems to work -- the Game Controllers control panel in Windows finds the device and reports its status as "OK," but the device just doesn't work right. Substituting a different USB controller (available as a PCI add-on card for about $20) solves the problem -- and points a finger squarely at VIA's USB implementation. It's worth mentioning that this problem is not a result of the USB device drawing too much power -- the Microsoft joystick has its own AC power supply.

Indeed, we've seen several USB-based peripherals that now specifically warn of compatibility problems with VIA chipsets. One such devices is the Roland UA-30. the package lists a number of restrictions on its use with certain types of PCs. For example, the package says you may expect good results with systems based on PCI-to-USB controllers from Intel and ALi. However, it warns that USB host controllers from VIA Tech and SiS may not function reliably. It also notes that if your PC is fitted with a non-Intel USB host controller, audio reproduction may be interrupted when using games or other software. You may be unable to play music CDs on your PC through the UA-30. Your PC, warns Roland, may not supply sufficient power to the USB port to reliably power the device. In some cases (specifically, with the SiS7001 PCI to USB Open Host Controller), even the use of a USB mouse can cause audio interruptions.

PCI glitches, most often causing audio stuttering on Athlon-based systems, are also commonplace.

Graphics Glitches
The whole fiasco reached something of a climax in Dec. 2001, when nVidia released an updated (23.11) version of its Detonator drivers that seemed to cause no end of troubles for Windows XP users of motherboards based on VIA chipsets. VIA responded to allegations of compatibility and stability problems in places such as the Via Arena forum by saying it was an innocent victim, and that the graphics drivers themselves were the source of the problems. However, this didn't stop the company from releasing a beta patch incorporating a fix expected to be part of the company's next version of the 4in1 drivers -- along with an apology for using end users as "guinea pig testers."

Technically, the VIA patch closes the RX55 memory register in BIOS, fixing a problem that Microsoft's KnowledgeBase weakly suggests may alternately be addressed by disabling graphics acceleration entirely. Says VIA, "in a nutshell, it?s a memory timing problem that only happens when the RX55 register is opened. Some motherboard manufacturers have already released new BIOS that have the register closed. In other instances, this patch is needed." At any rate, this wasn't the first such incident we've seen, and it probably won't be the last. The Inquirer has details.

Another issue apparently limited exclusively to systems based on VIA chipsets is detailed on our Windows XP troubleshooting page. Users upgrading to Windows XP who see an "UNMOUNTABLE BOOT VOLUME" error message may find themselves in a situation where they can't boot Windows XP, nor can they easily uninstall Windows XP and revert to an older operating system (e.g., Windows 98 or Me, etc.).

VIA-based system users may face other problems when attempting to add hardware to their systems. Consider, for example, the warning on the website of Steinberg, a leading music software and hardware developer: "We're afraid that we cannot recommend to use [sic] a mainboard with VIA chipset together with the Project Card."

As well, motherboards based on VIA chips typically offer lower performance than do Intel-based boards, especially in ATA/133 and SCSI performance.

And, even after you download sometimes further trouble-inducing BIOS updates and firmware patches to allow AGP to work as expected on a VIA-based system, the performance isn't all that great. As Tom Pabst demonstrates with a series of benchmarks, the popular VIA Pro 133 chipset's primary weakness is in AGP performance. (The Rev. A of the Pro 133 supports AGP4x; early revisions do not.) There are many documented examples of users finding VIA chipset-based computers less capable than Intel-based ones when attempting to use today's newer AGP4x video cards. Even the ageing Intel 440BX chipset outperforms the Pro 133 in 3D graphics tests, particularly when a lot of texturing and 3D operations are performed, as you might when running games.

Here are a few reviews that discuss key VIA weaknesses:
www.tomshardware.com: A preview of the VIA Pro 133
www.anandtech.com: review of the Tyan Trinity 400
www.gamersdepot.com: review of the Tyan Trinity 400
viahardware.com: Issues with VIA 686B and Sound Cards
viaarena.com: Issues with VIA chipsets and digital video

KT266A
VIA 266A-based motherboards seem prone to glitches, too, as a search of Google's newsgroups amply demonstrates. At Ars-Technica.com, Hannibal in Feb. 2002 said he's "given up on VIA," noting that the KT266A-based Soyo K7V Dragon+ IDE RAID + WinXP combination he tried to get working just didn't work properly. (Yes, he claims he tried all the latest drivers and patches.) He eventually gave up on his WinXP-on-an-IDE-RAID-1-partition plans, saying "in my old age, I've gotten to where I like things that work."

A Solution?
On Oct. 24, 2002, VIA released a new PCI latency patch for its trouble-plagued chipsets. It is, the company says, a Windows driver that will patch motherboards that have VIA chipsets. It is intended to solve many problems, including these:

-Files copied from one IDE hard disk drive to another are corrupted
-The computer stops ("freezes", "hangs", "locks up") when playing sounds, especially to a Creative SoundBlaster LIVE! card
-The computer stops when copying to or from an IDE DVD, CDROM, or CDRW drive Sounds played by a Creative Labs sound card are distorted

NOTE: It does not apply any fixes to AMD chipsets, such as the 750 or 761.

Download it from Fileconnect.

Conclusion
Can these problems usually be resolved? Yes. Is a VIA-based system a viable alternative to one based on an Intel chipset? Yes. Are VIA-based systems less trouble? No. Do we recommend VIA-based motherboards. Emphatically, NO."
 

Mem

Lifer
Apr 23, 2000
21,476
13
81
YOu don't have any USB devices which draw out the flaw. You don't have any PCI devices which use busmaster. Congratulations. You're lucky.
I'm sorry, but VIA is widely regarded as a poor quality brand and the reputation is well deserved. They make a shoddy product.

Actually I`m using quite a few USB devices connected and they all work great,my simple formula is clean install and use quality PSU ,ram etc..... works all the time ;).I also have a SiS chipset which also has no problems and a nForce board on the way to replace my solid VIA chipset Epox(only because of the leaky capacitors)so you can see I`m very open to trying all chipsets not just VIA.

The fact remains VIA,Nvidia,SiS all have solid chipsets in the Athlon 64 department.

 

AIWGuru

Banned
Nov 19, 2003
1,497
0
0
Originally posted by: Mem
YOu don't have any USB devices which draw out the flaw. You don't have any PCI devices which use busmaster. Congratulations. You're lucky.
I'm sorry, but VIA is widely regarded as a poor quality brand and the reputation is well deserved. They make a shoddy product.

Actually I`m using quite a few USB devices connected and they all work great,my simple formula is clean install and use quality PSU ,ram etc..... works all the time ;).I also have a SiS chipset which also has no problems and a nForce board on the way to replace my solid VIA chipset Epox(only because of the leaky capacitors)so you can see I`m very open to trying all chipsets not just VIA.

The fact remains VIA,Nvidia,SiS all have solid chipsets in the Athlon 64 department.

Unless you happen to catch that recent driver which they released for a few hours which hosed everyone's system - format time! They pulled it within hours but still - YIKES!
Why would you want to deal with a company like that?

I, also, am open to all sorts of different brands. That's why I have so many in so many different rigs past and present. But, this one brand has burned me so many times I can't buy them again - that would be foolish.
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
27,274
16,120
136
I have two ECS K7S5A boards, and except the occasional boot to network instead of hard drive glitch (re-boot again and it fine, go figure), I agree with a good PSU and quality memory, they are fine.

As far the the CAPS leaking problem, thats the motherboard maker NOT VIA that has a problem. I know that the ASUS K8V boards (some of them, not mine) had that problem, but aside from that one batch, I have yet to read of an unstable K8V (yes some people say they had problems getting them to boot at all, bad memory of bad build ??).

The people in your place with the bad via boards, what make are ther boards, and what other compoments and OS do they have ? You are making very broad ASSumptions.
 

AIWGuru

Banned
Nov 19, 2003
1,497
0
0
Originally posted by: Markfw900
I have two ECS K7S5A boards, and except the occasional boot to network instead of hard drive glitch (re-boot again and it fine, go figure), I agree with a good PSU and quality memory, they are fine.

As far the the CAPS leaking problem, thats the motherboard maker NOT VIA that has a problem. I know that the ASUS K8V boards (some of them, not mine) had that problem, but aside from that one batch, I have yet to read of an unstable K8V (yes some people say they had problems getting them to boot at all, bad memory of bad build ??).

The people in your place with the bad via boards, what make are ther boards, and what other compoments and OS do they have ? You are making very broad ASSumptions.

First, I never said anything about bad capacitors.

Second, all of these system have been troubleshot to death. Please don't try. I'm not making ANY assumptions. These are all well known and documented issues. Shoddy product.
While several of them are 2 years old - why do people act like that's a long time?
If you bought a car and it was a complete lemon would you buy another from the same manufacturer and say "Oh well, it two years ago, I'm sure the company has changed!" You'd have to be pretty stupid...
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
27,274
16,120
136
OK, shoddy product means "motherboard manufacturers problem". Also, in 2 years PC's are almost obsolete. Most big companies (the last two I have worked for with over 120,000 employees) "refresh" as in replace every PC in the company every 3 years. Yes, they are on lease, but thats why they do that, since they go obsolete in 3 years. And I still won;t believe it until I troubleshoot it myself.

Bottom line is MANY people here are using VIA chipset motherboards that work FINE and have no problems. (as of late) Just like many people hate SIS, yet you have one and I have one, and we like them. However, it is a fact that with a weak PSU, bad memory (inferior), too many pieces of memory, or a bad OS (WIN ME comes to mind), that board can be a disaster, I know that personally ! So don;t make broad statements. You have your opinion and are entitled to it, but today, that is not the general concensus.

Especially talking about the socket 754 motherboards, NOBODY that I have read has had instability with virtually any of these boards (few exceptions, as there are allways bad builds, impcompatable parts, etc..)
 

Dug

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2000
3,469
6
81
I can attest to the USB problem and VIA.
I see it everyday.
High powered USB devices that derive their power through the USB connetion can/ will have problems.

I for one would wait for the 939 Nforce3 250 board.
It may not be overwhelming in performance, but it has the features I need.