GM to build big SUV hybrids

[charrison]

linkage

In a bid to wrest the environmental advantage from rival Toyota Motor Corp., General Motors Corp. is preparing to offer a gasoline-electric hybrid engine in its full-size Chevy Tahoes and GMC Yukons beginning in the 2007 model year.

The move, expected to be announced as early as Thursday, represents a shift of the No. 1 automaker's alternative-vehicle strategy from smaller cars and SUVs to what GM's group vice president for global powertrain, Tom Stephens, calls "the highest (fuel) consuming vehicles, such as buses, full-size pickup trucks and sport utility vehicles."

...

preliminary GM studies estimate that the full-size hybrid SUVs under development could reduce fuel consumption by as much as 35 percent compared to traditional V-8s, far more than the fuel saved in a Saturn Vue hybrid.

If those numbers are even close -- effectively jumping to a combined 21.7 mpg from 16 today -- the effort potentially could answer Detroit's critics and re-frame the national debate on automotive technology and fuel efficiency.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

So if GM or Ford were even in the ballpark of Toyota/Honda . . . could you imagine the savings in crude imports? Ford didn't buy all of Toyota's technology b/c they wanted to have enough in-house experience to design complete systems. Ford's lack of ambition in the past and misplaced ambition in the present keeps pushing the Escape hybrid further into the future. GM was in denial. I doubt they've had a true conversion. Toyota/Honda will be making billions on hybrids while Ford/GM lose them.

Full-size SUVs -- not compact cars -- can deliver profits of as much as $15,000 per vehicle, which explains why the automaker is planning to delay the 2005 introduction of a hybrid Saturn Vue SUV so it can offer full-size SUV hybrids in the 2007 model year. The delay in the Vue hybrid is likely to disappoint the Union of Concerned Scientists and other environmental groups.

I give Ford a fighting chance b/c they will be mass producing hybrid vehicles (maybe) as early as next year. There's no hope for GM unless they truly produce revolutionary technology in 2007. Short of CIA-assistance I don't see GM's 1stGen being better than Toyota/Honda 3rdGen or even Ford's 2ndGen technology.

GM's "mild hybrid" full-size pickups, just beginning production, use electric flywheels, alternators and starters between the engine and the transmission to boost fuel economy as much as 15 percent.

Plans to offer a hybrid Saturn Vue and midsize Malibu sedan are being revised in favor of a separate mild hybrid powertrain that would use an electric belt, flywheel and starter.

Mild-hybrids would still produce vehicles with higher emissions and lower fuel economy than non-hybrid Corollas, Civics, and Accords. Assuming GMs "mild hybrids" actually materialize by 2005, they will compete with full hybrids from Toyota/Honda.

Considering GM is talking about a very limited lineup of hybrid vehicles by 2007 while releasing a fuel cell vehicle by 2010 . . . I think they are FOS on one account or the other. I wish them success but considering the tremendous infrastructure issues with hydrogen, GM could be in quite a pickle. GMs hybrid platform will be limited while external factors will limit the utility of hydrogen vehicles.

 

[dmcowen674]

Thanks CH,

I was wondering how long GM could hold out and stick to their insane timeline of holding out for the Hydrogen platform, they looked like idiots and this confirms they knew it. They will still miss out on a couple of key years of hybrid sales.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
So if GM or Ford were even in the ballpark of Toyota/Honda . . . could you imagine the savings in crude imports? Ford didn't buy all of Toyota's technology b/c they wanted to have enough in-house experience to design complete systems. Ford's lack of ambition in the past and misplaced ambition in the present keeps pushing the Escape hybrid further into the future. GM was in denial. I doubt they've had a true conversion. Toyota/Honda will be making billions on hybrids while Ford/GM lose them.

Full-size SUVs -- not compact cars -- can deliver profits of as much as $15,000 per vehicle, which explains why the automaker is planning to delay the 2005 introduction of a hybrid Saturn Vue SUV so it can offer full-size SUV hybrids in the 2007 model year. The delay in the Vue hybrid is likely to disappoint the Union of Concerned Scientists and other environmental groups.

I give Ford a fighting chance b/c they will be mass producing hybrid vehicles (maybe) as early as next year. There's no hope for GM unless they truly produce revolutionary technology in 2007. Short of CIA-assistance I don't see GM's 1stGen being better than Toyota/Honda 3rdGen or even Ford's 2ndGen technology.

GM's "mild hybrid" full-size pickups, just beginning production, use electric flywheels, alternators and starters between the engine and the transmission to boost fuel economy as much as 15 percent.

Plans to offer a hybrid Saturn Vue and midsize Malibu sedan are being revised in favor of a separate mild hybrid powertrain that would use an electric belt, flywheel and starter.

Mild-hybrids would still produce vehicles with higher emissions and lower fuel economy than non-hybrid Corollas, Civics, and Accords. Assuming GMs "mild hybrids" actually materialize by 2005, they will compete with full hybrids from Toyota/Honda.

Considering GM is talking about a very limited lineup of hybrid vehicles by 2007 while releasing a fuel cell vehicle by 2010 . . . I think they are FOS on one account or the other. I wish them success but considering the tremendous infrastructure issues with hydrogen, GM could be in quite a pickle. GMs hybrid platform will be limited while external factors will limit the utility of hydrogen vehicles.

There are no tremendous hydrogen infrastructure issues. Fuel cells can run off hydrogen rich gasoline.

 

[SuperTool]

Talk is cheap. Especially from Detroit. My bet is there will be a mass produced hybrid Tundra before a mass produced hybrid Yukon.
Why? Because GM just wants hybrids for publicity to look environmentally friendly while they build gas guzzlers. Toyota is actually investing is this technology for mass production to eventually make money off of it.
Detroit is not proactive, it's reactive. They don't have a hybrid, so they point to a pie in the sky hydrogen car.

 

[ReiAyanami]

If those numbers are even close -- effectively jumping to a combined 21.7 mpg from 16 today -- the effort potentially could answer Detroit's critics and re-frame the national debate on automotive technology and fuel efficiency.

that's still worse than a normal car's 30mpg and far from next gen prius 80MPG and current gen 50-60mpg, simply put an enviromentally friendly hybrid SUV is somwhere between hypocritical irony and paradoxial ambivalence

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
If those numbers are even close -- effectively jumping to a combined 21.7 mpg from 16 today -- the effort potentially could answer Detroit's critics and re-frame the national debate on automotive technology and fuel efficiency.

that's still worse than a normal car's 30mpg and far from next gen prius 80MPG and current gen 50-60mpg, simply put an enviromentally friendly hybrid SUV is somwhere between hypocritical irony and paradoxial ambivalence

Yes, but a tahoe is not tiny car. A 21 MPG tahoe would be quite respectable. That being said, why are there no tahoe deisels right now? I would imagine such a beast would get 20+ mpg as well.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Yes, but a tahoe is not tiny car. A 21 MPG tahoe would be quite respectable. That being said, why are there no tahoe deisels right now? I would imagine such a beast would get 20+ mpg as well.

A 21mpg Tahoe isn't quite respectable . . . it's just less offensive. There's no diesel Tahoe b/c GM hasn't bothered to invest in the technology. I believe one or more German automakers have clean diesel options but that would put Detroit in the same predicament as the hybrid . . . day late and a dollar short on technology.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Yes, but a tahoe is not tiny car. A 21 MPG tahoe would be quite respectable. That being said, why are there no tahoe deisels right now? I would imagine such a beast would get 20+ mpg as well.

A 21mpg Tahoe isn't quite respectable . . . it's just less offensive. There's no diesel Tahoe b/c GM hasn't bothered to invest in the technology. I believe one or more German automakers have clean diesel options but that would put Detroit in the same predicament as the hybrid . . . day late and a dollar short on technology.

GM has the diesel, they probably even have the clean diesel tech, but a question of why it is not used more.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

GM has the diesel, they probably even have the clean diesel tech, but a question of why it is not used more.

I know GM has diesels, but I doubt they have clean technology considering their gasoline engines are no prize. Obviously, I'm just speculating but I would imagine GM isn't putting clean diesels into production b/c . . . they do NOT have the technology, they cannot economically (according to in-house bean counters) produce the engines, or they are holding back the technology so DOD, mild hybrids, and future full hybrids look more impressive compared to GM's current stable of vehicles.

As long as the Feds are unlikely to extract a penalty for inefficient, polluting vehicles . . . I doubt the poor state of light (and heavy) truck fuel economy is likely to change . . . unless of course Americans start buying more light trucks/SUVs from Nippon Inc.

 

[zephyrprime]

Considering GM is talking about a very limited lineup of hybrid vehicles by 2007 while releasing a fuel cell vehicle by 2010 . . . I think they are FOS on one account or the other.

I agree. Fuel cell is much more difficult to attain GM claims. Even Ballard says that a feasible FC car is at least 10 years away.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Automakers are frightened to enter the light duty diesel market because federal legislators keep threatening to step in & kill the market because of emissions.

The problem with "clean" diesels is that they still produce lots of soot.

Chrysler will be the next to produce a diesel vehicle for the US market, a TDI 4 cylinder Liberty, due out for the 04' model year, should pull ~20 mpg. Chrysler already puts TDI diesels in their minivans, PT Cruiser, etc for overseas sales.

If GM can produce hybrids in any kind of volume, they will make a significant difference in emissions, fuel economy, because of the numbers of full size vehicles sold. However, if they remain a small sales volume market niche, they'll make virtually no difference.

I own a GM diesel & am on my 2nd VW diesel, (a diesel fanboi?)

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

GM makes money selling light trucks/SUVs etc but GM still sells (and leases) hundreds of thousands of vehicles each year that are NOT light trucks/SUVs. My delaying the Saturn VUE until 2007 (or later) they are guaranteeing that GM buyers will have no access to hybrids. At best GM buyers will have access to "light" hybrids in the Malibu, etc. In the meantime, Ford will have the Escape and Focus; Honda/Acura (assuming somebody loans them a lot of money) may have their entire line capable of hosting a hybrid drive system; Toyota/Lexus has the money and the technology to have a full hybrid line by 2010.

The Insight was niche b/c it's a 2-seater. Honda considered it a design mule and now Honda will use that technology to produce more advanced systems to share throughout Honda/Acura. Toyota is not only claiming they will make money on the Prius . . . they will likely spread the system throughout their line (and raise prices). If the US government stepped up (instead of stepping back) with incentives for FULL hybrid vehicles then hundreds of thousands of vehicles could be on the road within a few years.

Under any circumstances, it's clear that GM will not be a major player in the consumer market for fuel efficient vehicles until well into the next decade.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

Considering GM is talking about a very limited lineup of hybrid vehicles by 2007 while releasing a fuel cell vehicle by 2010 . . . I think they are FOS on one account or the other.

I agree. Fuel cell is much more difficult to attain GM claims. Even Ballard says that a feasible FC car is at least 10 years away.

GM has been investing something like 2 billion a year in Fuel Cells. The CEO has bet his career on a production line startup beginning in 2010. IF GM is successful with their Fuel cell platform they will leapfrog Japan and dominate the world car market in a very short time. I don't know how many of you have looked at GM's strategy but they aren't just slapping a fuel cell powerplant into a standard auto, they are redesigning the whole concept and if successful will lower the cost of manufacturing of cars by over 50%. It's a gamble and you have good reason to be doubtfull that they will achieve it but IF they are successful the whole country wins.

 

[LeadMagnet]

WOW that means my wife's Ford Expedition would get 16MPG in the city and 20 on highway

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

The CEO has bet his career on a production line startup beginning in 2010.

Burns said that by 2010 he expects ?hundreds of thousands? of vehicles on the road powered by hydrogen fuel cells, mostly buses or other fleet-purchased vehicles rather than individual passenger cars.
The interesting question is who's going to be selling those vehicles.

GM has been investing something like 2 billion a year in Fuel Cells.

Burns said General Motors was spending "hundreds of millions of dollars," but less than $300 million, on its fuel-cell research yearly. Vail said the figure was "much closer to $200 million" than to $300 million. That total includes research for automotive and stationary fuel-cell power.

Toyota and now Honda have PROVEN that hybrids can be produced at a profit. The fuel cell is wishful thinking and deserves investment but even a 50% reduction in production cost would place these drivetrains out of reach for most. The right of center are often critical about the costs of innovation (environmental protection) but here's a case where the most viable solution (hybrids) is being all but ignored.

Who knows . . . maybe hybrids start blowing up next year AND GMs hydrogen fuel cells are delivered as advertised. I think that's wishful thinking for GM stockholders.