GM chickens out on CVT transmissions for their cars

[NFS4]

GM axes CVT gearbox


By Richard Truett
Automotive News / July 26, 2004


General Motors is dropping its continuously variable transmission.

The one-speed CVT gearbox, built in an Adam Opel AG plant in Szentgotthard, Hungary, and touted as a fuel-saving transmission, debuted in late 2002 in the Saturn Ion Coupe and Saturn Vue and was optional in the 2004 Opel Astra.

The CVT will only be available in all-wheel drive versions of the 2005 Saturn Vue, but will end production when it is dropped from that vehicle in 2006, says Tom Stephens, group vice president of GM Powertrain.

A six-speed automatic transmission under development will replace the CVT at the start of the 2006 model year. That transmission is a scaled down version of the joint GM-Ford transmission both automakers are working on.

For the 2005 model year, GM will use a four-speed automatic transmission in the Saturn Ion, Stephens said.

GM's experiment with CVTs has been costly.

The gearbox was more than a year late and it has had quality problems. GM halted production from January to March to fix an assembly glitch. Consumers complained of failed transmissions, grinding noises and sluggish acceleration. The automaker extended the warranty on the CVT earlier this year. The CVT is a $1,990 option on the Vue and was a $900 option on the Ion.

Neither the late launch nor the quality issues killed the CVT. Instead, Stephens says GM's decision to drop the CVT is based on the better performance and fuel economy of the upcoming six-speed automatic, as well as the economies of scale that will come from producing the six-speed in high volume.

"We believe the future of GM's transmission portfolio is planetary gear 5- and 6-speed automatic transmissions, not CVTs," said Stephens.

GM would save money by switching from the CVT to the six-speed automatic.

Says Stephens: "The six-speed has more capability and range. It isn't giving up anything to CVT."

Hmm, funny considering that Honda, Toyota, Audi and Nissan have no problems with theirs and Ford is rolling out a CVT with their new 500 and Freestyle :roll:

 

[Anubis]

WTF is CVT?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Anubis
WTF is CVT?

Continuously variable transmission

http://www.carcarecouncil.org/Engine/CVT.shtml
http://www.insightcentral.net/KB/faq-cvt.html

 

[Shyatic]

GM = cost cutters. CVT is a pretty expensive transmission and since they have the regular autos... they will use them. A lot of their money is going towards hydrogen research but well... we'll see.

I still wouldn't buy a GM car though So doesn't matter much for me.

 

[Zim Hosein]

GM would save money by switching from the CVT to the six-speed automatic.

Considering how many vehicles GM makes, doesn't this make sense?

 

[PricklyPete]

While I hate to see new development ditched like that...I would rather GM work on some of their other problems (like improving their interiors...which they are starting to do) than spend money on a low volume unit like a CVT.

A 6 speed transmission in a Silverado, Tahoe, or Colorado would make me very happy.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Better dropping the CVT than having all sorts of problems with them later. GM automatics are quite good for the most part (BMW used to source GM's 4-speed auto for the 5-series IIRC).

CVTs are pretty cool though.

 

[Lonyo]

Better not to have damned autos

 

[UNCjigga]

I don't know what the public perception is on CVT transmissions, but I do know a cousin of mine recently drove a Nissan Murano with CVT when shopping for an SUV, and he didn't like it at all.

edit: he didn't drive a Quest, he drove the funny-lookin SUV (Murano)

 

[thomsbrain]

if they were smart, they'd trade their A/C to a japanese company in return for a CVT. GM makes damn good A/C, no doubt about it.

 

[Syringer]

I thought the title meant GM had their own chickens and that they were released..

 

[Kenazo]

ha ha..> I thought it meant that there were genetically modified chickens. I was confused.

 

[LeadMagnet]

Neither the late launch nor the quality issues killed the CVT. Instead, Stephens says GM's decision to drop the CVT is based on the better performance and fuel economy of the upcoming six-speed automatic, as well as the economies of scale that will come from producing the six-speed in high volume.

So they were ok with having quality control problems? Ever wonder why Toyota and Honda are kicking GM's butt in gain market share?

 

[Liviathan]

I have CVT on my car and i think its great. Very smooth ride...no shifting. CVT technology has been around for ages, it just started a come back recently.

 

[blakeatwork]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
if they were smart, they'd trade their A/C to a japanese company in return for a CVT. GM makes damn good A/C, no doubt about it.

Really?? I've had nothing but problems on mine (2000 Firefly). Pinhole leaks and a new compressor later, and i still don't ahve an AC unit that works..

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: Kenazo
ha ha..> I thought it meant that there were genetically modified chickens. I was confused.

Me too. It took like three reads of the title before it clicked!

 

[Demon-Xanth]

A CVT inherantly isn't well suited for torquey situations. The Vue is the heaviest vehicle that I know of that's had a CVT option. Given GM's generally excellent automatic transmissions (hey, BMW and Jaguar used 'em), it probably just wasn't upto par.

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
A CVT inherantly isn't well suited for torquey situations. The Vue is the heaviest vehicle that I know of that's had a CVT option. Given GM's generally excellent automatic transmissions (hey, BMW and Jaguar used 'em), it probably just wasn't upto par.

Nope. Audi A6, Nissan Murano. A CVT is hooked up to Nissan's 4.5 liter V8 in one of their large sedans Japan.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
A CVT inherantly isn't well suited for torquey situations. The Vue is the heaviest vehicle that I know of that's had a CVT option. Given GM's generally excellent automatic transmissions (hey, BMW and Jaguar used 'em), it probably just wasn't upto par.

Nope. Audi A6, Nissan Murano. A CVT is hooked up to Nissan's 4.5 liter V8 in one of their large sedans Japan.

I did not know that. My above statement is no longer true. HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME A LIAR!

 

[Excelsior]

Have they not been using CVT longer than GM?

 

[Eli]

meh.

Probably a bad move as far as the future goes. I bet CVTs will become the norm, assuming they can make them at least as reliable as a good automatic.

 

[Squisher]

It's not necessarily a bad move, if they're having problems implementing it. If, these transmissions seem to fail at higher rates it wouldn't hurt to sit on the sidelines just to see how it pans out.

GM, could always outsource this later on until they get up to speed and once they work out all the kinks.

 

[raptor13]

I should mention that I know from first hand experince that Ford is having tremendous problems with the CVTs on the new 500. Problems to the tune of the transmission flat out snaps with about 150 miles on the ticker. That's not a good thing.

 

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
A CVT inherantly isn't well suited for torquey situations. The Vue is the heaviest vehicle that I know of that's had a CVT option. Given GM's generally excellent automatic transmissions (hey, BMW and Jaguar used 'em), it probably just wasn't upto par.

Nope. Audi A6, Nissan Murano. A CVT is hooked up to Nissan's 4.5 liter V8 in one of their large sedans Japan.

I did not know that. My above statement is no longer true. HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME A LIAR!

In fairness, the CVT system Nissan uses on powerful motors is not the same as other automakers. I believe it doesn't use chains or steel belts, but toroidal rollers. Basically Auto > CVT, so GM is right. CVT advantage is that it can keep the engine running through constant optimal RPM's. However, customers don't like it, because the engine sounds monotonic, so CVT's are controled to use fixed gear ratios, which defeats the whole purpose of CVT. With 6 or 7 gear autos, there is little incentive for CVT's. So why invest in them, and deal with all the inherent weaknesses? Just because Toyota is doing it?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
A CVT inherantly isn't well suited for torquey situations. The Vue is the heaviest vehicle that I know of that's had a CVT option. Given GM's generally excellent automatic transmissions (hey, BMW and Jaguar used 'em), it probably just wasn't upto par.

Nope. Audi A6, Nissan Murano. A CVT is hooked up to Nissan's 4.5 liter V8 in one of their large sedans Japan.

I did not know that. My above statement is no longer true. HOW DARE YOU MAKE ME A LIAR!

In fairness, the CVT system Nissan uses on powerful motors is not the same as other automakers. I believe it doesn't use chains or steel belts, but toroidal rollers. Basically Auto > CVT, so GM is right. CVT advantage is that it can keep the engine running through constant optimal RPM's. However, customers don't like it, because the engine sounds monotonic, so CVT's are controled to use fixed gear ratios, which defeats the whole purpose of CVT. With 6 or 7 gear autos, there is little incentive for CVT's. So why invest in them, and deal with all the inherent weaknesses? Just because Toyota is doing it?

Nissan Murano
Mini Cooper
Audi A4
Audi A6
Ford 500
Ford Freestyle
Mercury Montego
Toyota Prius
Honda Civic Hybrid
Honda Civic HX Coupe