GM Building New DOHC V8

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
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http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/18/gm-upgrading-ny-engine-plant-to-build-new-v8/

The General Motors Tonawanda Engine Plant near Niagara Falls, NY will be getting more money from the mothership in order to tool up for another new engine. Tonawanda currently builds 4, 5, 6 and 8-cylinder engines ranging from the 2.2L EcoTec to the enormous 8.1L big-block V-8. GM is now going to invest another $300 million to add a line for a new dual overhead cam (DOHC) V-8 engine, that has Job 1 scheduled for sometime on 2009. The engine is targeted for future luxury cars and will presumably replace the NorthStar V-8 which first appeared in 1992.

General Motors has already invested $1.2 billion in Tonawanda over the last decade, tooling up for all the other engines currently built there, and there is no indication if this will replace one of the current engines or will be added to the current lines. The Tonawanda plant has built almost 67 million engines since 1938, and previous products have included the 2.8L V-6, from the original X-Cars (now evolved into the 3.5/3.9L "High Value" engines) and the "legendary" 2.5L Iron Duke. The full GM press release is after the jump.
Why? Their OHV offerings are already quite good, where else does it have left to go? Great power, great reliability, low cost, good mileage? Maybe for an all out performance engine to get more out of the displacement?

No more uber-low end torque :(

EDIT

Just found this article on NY Times, interesting quick read:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/14/autom...b7ab42d&ex=1169528400&pagewanted=print

January 14, 2007
Making Modern Horsepower the Old-Fashioned Way
By DON SHERMAN

AT a Detroit auto show press conference last week, Dodge announced that for 2008 the Viper SRT10 would get a boost of 90 horsepower ? to 600, from a mere 510. Some reporters in the crowd might have thought that DaimlerChrysler engineers had at last modernized the Viper?s brute-force V-10 engine with dual overhead cams and four-valve cylinder heads.

They would have been wrong.

Instead, they learned, the monstrous Viper engine would continue to breathe through two valves in each cylinder, and those valves would still be opened by pushrods, a venerable mechanism that has all but vanished from modern cars. Still, the Viper V-10 would have a full complement of technology tricks inside, like variable valve timing, which makes it possible to tune the engine for both high power and low emissions with a few computer-controlled adjustments.

High horsepower and high technology usually march in lockstep, advances in performance arriving whenever mechanical innovations permit. Fuel injection, turbochargers and four-valve-per-cylinder designs have all made it possible for automakers to deliver the power that makes drivers reach for their checkbooks, yet remain in compliance with air-quality regulations and often with little penalty in fuel economy.

After the energy squeezes of the 1970s, the future of automobiles seemed to be small ? downsized cars and trucks powered by engines with fewer cylinders and smaller displacements. To compensate for the reduction in brawn, engineers set out to fine-tune the coming generations of engines. Inevitably, producing V-8 power from a four- or six-cylinder engine pushed the engineers in the direction of higher engine speeds ? more revolutions per minute to extract equivalent performance on less fuel.

Of course imports from Europe and Japan, where gasoline has long been expensive, were already using overhead cam engines to extract the best performance from their small size. Moving all the mechanical parts that open and close the valves to the top of the engine ? thus eliminating the pushrods ? yields a stiffer valvetrain that in turn makes it possible to spin the engine faster, a key to maximum power.

Stacking the cams on top of the cylinder head also clears the way for larger, more efficient ports, the pathways that direct gases into and away from the combustion chamber. A third benefit is that operating four valves for each cylinder is impractical with pushrods but a cinch with overhead cams. Doubling the number of valves can improve combustion, lower exhaust emissions and increase mileage.

But bucking this prevailing wisdom has long been a Motor City specialty. Wouldn?t you know it, Detroit?s seemingly old-tech pushrod engines, also called overhead valve designs, have become horsepower heroes. It?s as if the 505-horse V-8 that lets the Corvette Z06 run with Ferraris, the engines in G.M.?s bread-and-butter full-size trucks, Chrysler Group?s Hemi V-8, and the Dodge Viper?s thundering V-10 never got the memo that pushrods are obsolete.

So why do pushrods persist? Because they are superior in certain areas and inventors keep coming up with fresh ideas to keep them in the game.

Packaging is where the overhead valve engines trounce the overhead cam alternatives. Extra camshafts, and the chains or belts needed to drive them, increase weight, cost and complexity ? but especially size. Pushrod engines, notably V-8?s, can fit in spaces that may be too small for an overhead cam design. Because the top of a pushrod engine is so compact, engineers can load the bottom half with larger pistons that sweep through a longer stroke.

As an example, consider two current cars with V-8 engines of about 500-horsepower, the 7-liter Corvette Z06, a classic pushrod design, and the 4.3-liter Ferrari F430, a high-tech dual-cam engine. While the horsepower is similar, the Corvette V-8 produces 470 pound-feet of torque compared with the Ferrari?s tepid 343 pound-feet. Torque is what spins the tires when a rambunctious driver tromps the gas pedal, and it?s what helps pull a heavy trailer over a mountain pass.

The Viper holsters a magnum V-10 under its low hood. Along with the arrival of new technology deep inside, this engine grows to a strapping 8.4 liters for 2008. Extra camshafts aren?t necessary when you?ve got 10 huge pistons answering every nudge of the throttle.

The challenge is to make large engines seem small and economical at the gas pumps. To do that, G.M. and DaimlerChrysler disable half of the cylinders in some of their V-8s during cruising, when all their muscle isn?t required. Cylinder deactivation is easy to accomplish with pushrods, but more difficult with overhead cams.

To coax their pushrod designs to rev higher without running out of breath, engineers have designed lighter, stiffer, lower-friction valvetrains. Pushrod V-8 engines racing in Nascar routinely rev to 9,000 rpm. Thanks to natural trickle-down, the lightweight valves, low-friction lifters and high-tension valve springs made of exotic steels have filtered into production pushrod engines, giving them the speed and stamina to compete with Ferrari?s V-8. While the F-430?s screaming 8,500 r.p.m. maximum speed is still out of reach, the 7,000-r.p.m. redline of the Corvette outdoes the 6,600-r.p.m. maximum of the Porsche 911 Turbo. The new Viper engine revs to 6,200 r.p.m., 200 more than before.

To fill the cylinders with the air and fuel needed to sustain high-speed operation, Detroit engine designers have packed larger intake ports into the space available between the pushrods. Lacking the room to go wider, engineers increased the capacity of the intake passages by making them taller.


Variable valve timing is another emerging technology that engineers employ to minimize emissions, improve smoothness and enhance power. Changing the timing of specific operations ? when valves open and close in relation to each other and to the position of the pistons ? is not difficult in a dual-cam engine, which controls the intake and exhaust valves independently.

Accomplishing variable valve timing with a single camshaft is a different matter entirely, because the lobes that lift the valves are locked in relation to each other.

Engineers at Dodge, working with the British firm Mechadyne, redesigned the camshaft to create two concentric shafts, one inside the other. The hollow outer tube holds the exhaust lobes while an inner shaft drives the intake lobes.

This allows continual adjustment of valve operation, according to the needs of the engine at different speeds.

The cam-within-a-cam concept has existed for decades, but perfecting it for production might just add another decade to the life of the pushrod engine.
 

Falloutboy

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I'm pretty sure GMs current line of V8s are mostly all based on the LS series that was pioneerd on the vette. the LS series engines are not OHC they are standard pushrod engines. so this makes sence in a way, but I don't see why the current LS series is both effcient (for a v8) and produces tons of power that is competetive with any other v8 on the market
 

ElFenix

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umm... the northstar is DOHC... this is not a replacement for the OHV engines.
 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
umm... the northstar is DOHC... this is not a replacement for the OHV engines.
Good point, but why would they pay $300M to put a newer DOHC engine into a few select products? Aren't they only in Cadillacs?
 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Falloutboy
I'm pretty sure GMs current line of V8s are mostly all based on the LS series that was pioneerd on the vette. the LS series engines are not OHC they are standard pushrod engines. so this makes sence in a way, but I don't see why the current LS series is both effcient (for a v8) and produces tons of power that is competetive with any other v8 on the market
That is exactly what I said
 

ElFenix

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Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Originally posted by: ElFenix
umm... the northstar is DOHC... this is not a replacement for the OHV engines.
Good point, but why would they pay $300M to put a newer DOHC engine into a few select products? Aren't they only in Cadillacs?

well, the northstar is only found in cadillacs, officially (it's in buicks too). and the 'shortstar' engine has found its way into plenty of applications. i suspect that a lot of GM's OHC engine design derives from northstar.

edit: wikipedia doesn't think that LY7 has anything to do with northstar. and shortstar was only used in the olds.
 

Ktulu

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Dec 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Why? Their OHV offerings are already quite good, where else does it have left to go? Great power, great reliability, low cost, good mileage? Maybe for an all out performance engine to get more out of the displacement?

No more uber-low end torque :(

Marketing. People assume OHV is crap and OHC is the latest and greatest. The same people that believe this are the same people that buy into the whole HP/L thing.
 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Originally posted by: ElFenix
umm... the northstar is DOHC... this is not a replacement for the OHV engines.
Good point, but why would they pay $300M to put a newer DOHC engine into a few select products? Aren't they only in Cadillacs?

well, the northstar is only found in cadillacs, officially (it's in buicks too). and the 'shortstar' engine has found its way into plenty of applications. i suspect that a lot of GM's OHC engine design derives from northstar.

edit: wikipedia doesn't think that LY7 has anything to do with northstar. and shortstar was only used in the olds.
Good point good point. Could very well advance their low cost OHC offerings, which are important in the budget sector.
 

DarkKnight69

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Jun 15, 2005
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Because they are having GREAT luck with the DOHC 4 and 6 cylinders...

The 3.9 DOHC is awesome, and I personally own a Ecotec 2.2L. I love it, awesome torque from a 2.2!
 

Toastedlightly

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Aug 7, 2004
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Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
No more uber-low end torque :(
Why can you get lots of low-end torque with pushrods but not with OHC?

I'd assume you could muster more by having far better paths for your intake and exaust ports due to not having push rods in the way.
 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
No more uber-low end torque :(
Why can you get lots of low-end torque with pushrods but not with OHC?

I'd assume you could muster more by having far better paths for your intake and exaust ports due to not having push rods in the way.
I'm sure it would all work out fine, and with enough displacement it probably wouldn't matter. But my understanding is that OHV really gives you that extra bump in the real low RPM range, it is what allows me to shift at 2K RPM or less ;)

I know I know, I'm sure an OHC design will be just fine and offer plenty of torque down low...blablabla
 

Toastedlightly

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Aug 7, 2004
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Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
No more uber-low end torque :(
Why can you get lots of low-end torque with pushrods but not with OHC?

I'd assume you could muster more by having far better paths for your intake and exaust ports due to not having push rods in the way.
I'm sure it would all work out fine, and with enough displacement it probably wouldn't matter. But my understanding is that OHV really gives you that extra bump in the real low RPM range, it is what allows me to shift at 2K RPM or less ;)

I know I know, I'm sure an OHC design will be just fine and offer plenty of torque down low...blablabla

I love the torque like crazy, cheapness and the robustness of OHV engines
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
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Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
Originally posted by: Howard
Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
No more uber-low end torque :(
Why can you get lots of low-end torque with pushrods but not with OHC?

I'd assume you could muster more by having far better paths for your intake and exaust ports due to not having push rods in the way.
I'm sure it would all work out fine, and with enough displacement it probably wouldn't matter. But my understanding is that OHV really gives you that extra bump in the real low RPM range
Maybe so, but why is that?
 

MBrown

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: DarkKnight69
Because they are having GREAT luck with the DOHC 4 and 6 cylinders...

The 3.9 DOHC is awesome, and I personally own a Ecotec 2.2L. I love it, awesome torque from a 2.2!

:thumbsup:

 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: MBrown
Originally posted by: DarkKnight69
Because they are having GREAT luck with the DOHC 4 and 6 cylinders...

The 3.9 DOHC is awesome, and I personally own a Ecotec 2.2L. I love it, awesome torque from a 2.2!

:thumbsup:
The Ecotec 2.2L is awesome; had that in my gf's 01 Saturn L200 before we sold it. Great engine
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
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Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
Originally posted by: Howard
Maybe so, but why is that?
That's a great question, but one I can't personally explain.

Calling ZV?
OHC allows for easier optimization of high-RPM flow characteristics for intake and exhaust ports. along with less valvetrain mass and lower valvetrain inertia. These advantages combine to make OHC engines easier to optimize for high RPM performance.

OHV, with its higher valvetrain mass and inertia and more restrictive port design lends itself to lower RPM optimization.

Of course, these are generalizations and a determined engineer can make an OHC engine that has massive low-end torque, or an OHV engine that can scream at high RPM.

The big advantage of OHV is physical size. For example, Ford's DOHC 4.6 litre (281 CI) is physically larger than the old 5.0 litre (302 CI) OHV engine. The DOHC 4.6 is physically a very wide and tall engine, I believe that even an older OHV Ford 351/428 would not be physically larger than the DOHC 4.6. Of course, with size, assuming equal materials used, comes weight. So an OHV engine can be ligher overall (even though valvetrain mass is increased).

A 3.5 litre Nissan VQ engine is not significantly smaller than Chevrolet's small block, and the Chevy engine, in some trims, is actually lighter.

In terms of HP/Litre, OHC wins. In terms of HP/lb, OHV wins pretty handily since OHV allows greater displacement per pound.

This is another reason why OHV typically means more low-end. A larger engine will have more low-end torque. Since OHV allows larger displacement for a given physical size, it typically yields more low-end torque.

Assuming that everything except valve activation is the same, there should be negligible difference between an OHV and an OHC engine. It's just that the two lend themselves to different optimizations.

ZV
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
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Advantages of DOHC:
Better airflow
Allows for better tuning
Sounds high tech and state of the art (seriously, this matters more than it should be)

Advantages of OHV:
Smaller
Cheaper
Shorter chains/belts
Lighter
 

sonoma1993

Diamond Member
May 31, 2004
3,412
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I could be wrong on this, but wasn't GM thinking about putting the northstar v8 into the Chevy corvette awhile back?
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
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For reference:
Summit Racing P/N NAL-19156261 $6,426.39
GM LS2 (6.0L) crate engine, 400HP, weighs about 450LBs

Summit Racing P/N FMS-M-6007-M146 $6,229.95
Ford 4.6L DOHC crate engine, 305HP, weighs about 550LBs.
(2003 Mustang Mach 1)

Both V8s, both put in similar vehicles, both cost pretty close to the same price and come with the same equipment. Which would you rather have?