Globalfoundries: Customers wanted

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
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Globalfoundries: Customers wanted

Globalfoundries needs to attract more customers to get its huge Fab1 (and subsequent fabs) utilized. In order to demonstrate its chip-making muscles, the company allowed a handful of journalists to visit their Dresden clean room. Our visual impressions can be seen here.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;?articleID=221900415

Ouch. That is just incredibly bad PR for GloFo to have EETimes (they ain't no BSN) pass a press junket off as being an act of desparation by GloFo.

Any bets on whether that journalists gets invited back? lol

Charlie's got any interesting headline grabber regarding TSMC this evening:

TSMC is rumored to have killed its 32nm node
40nm troubles carry forward

WORD JUST IN from the far east says that TSMC may have canceled its 32nm process node. On the surface this might seem very bad, but it is much more nuanced than that.

http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/11/20/tsmc-rumored-have-killed-their-32nm-node/
 

deputc26

Senior member
Nov 7, 2008
548
1
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I have often wondered how GloFlo's 45nm process compares to TSMC's 40nm process on the basis of performance potential/watt. TSMC yield issues aside I am under the impression that GloFlo's SOI will give significantly (>10%) better performance/watt on average. If this is correct would they not be attractive to ARM designers for the exploding smart-phone/smart-device market? Wouldn't the extra performance and-or battery life be a legitimate competitive edge for a handset manufacturer or are the costs of entry prohibitively high for the hypothetical prospective customer? Or some other issue that I am unaware of?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
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The fact that no ATI chips are made there speaks volumes.

AMD's 45nm came out in in Nov 2008, a little over 2 yrs after they acquired ATI.

Cypress came out in Sept 2009, a little less than 3yrs after they acquired ATI.

In IC design time there really wasn't much time in the timeline for AMD to change where Cypress was going to be fabbed unless they wanted to incur sizable delays while they reworked the chip to accommodate the differences in design rules and device parametrics.

I would not be surprised if the decision to go with TSMC's 40nm hadn't already been made at ATI before the acquisition.

40nm at TSMC would have already been a year into development in 2006 and customers are critical to that phase of a node's development as that is the phase in which parametric objectives are set in stone (process development guys commit to spice model specs, etc).

Once a consensus is reached on what the new node is supposed to deliver parametric-wise the design guys go off and design their IC's with expectation of a process technology existing in 2-3 yrs time for the chip to be fabbed with and the process guys go off and develop all the technology necessary to actually hit the parametric specs with the expectation that there will be chips taping out and using it shortly after they finish their job.

With the kind of money that gets allocated and committed to a four year design cycle based on those initial preliminary customer and foundry commitments (there is a lot of trust and reliance there) decision makers on both sides don't just bail and jump ship willy-nilly on a whim. They need compelling reasons to justify damaging strategic business relationships (burning bridges = bad, even in business).

The earliest we should have ever realistically expected to see an AMD GPU product fabbed internally (or now at GloFo) was 32nm, and I'd even say 28nm is probably the more realistic (lower barrier to transition) timeframe.


AMD Completes ATI Acquisition and Creates Processing Powerhouse

SUNNYVALE, CALIF. -- October 25, 2006 --AMD (NYSE:AMD) today announced the completion of its approximately $5.4 billion acquisition of ATI Technologies Inc.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543~113741,00.html

AMD Announces Widespread Availability and Broad Global OEM Support for New Quad-Core AMD Opteron™ Processor

SUNNYVALE, Calif. -- November 13, 2008 --AMD (NYSE: AMD) today announced widespread availability of its 45nm Quad-Core AMD Opteron™ processor,

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543_15434~129135,00.html

AMD Changes the Game with ATI Radeon™ HD 5800 Series

SUNNYVALE, Calif. --9/23/2009 AMD (NYSE: AMD) today launched the most powerful processor ever created1, found in its next-generation graphics cards,

http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amd-press-release-2009sep22.aspx
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
I have often wondered how GloFlo's 45nm process compares to TSMC's 40nm process on the basis of performance potential/watt. TSMC yield issues aside I am under the impression that GloFlo's SOI will give significantly (>10%) better performance/watt on average. If this is correct would they not be attractive to ARM designers for the exploding smart-phone/smart-device market? Wouldn't the extra performance and-or battery life be a legitimate competitive edge for a handset manufacturer or are the costs of entry prohibitively high for the hypothetical prospective customer? Or some other issue that I am unaware of?

Yep.

There's a reason ATIC went after acquiring Chartered Semiconductor, the only foundry that offered SOI other than IBM prior to GloFo becoming a foundry.

TSMC has dabbled in SOI for as long as the stuff has been around, I think we all have or did at some point if for no other reason than just to confirm what it is we are missing out on by staying with bulk.

I would be surprised if TSMC doesn't advertise an SOI option at 22nm and beyond.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
12,040
2,256
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TSMC has dabbled in SOI for as long as the stuff has been around, I think we all have or did at some point if for no other reason than just to confirm what it is we are missing out on by staying with bulk.

Why have they not moved to SOI already?
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,551
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@IDC

Isn't Global Foundries also supply constrained until their New York fab gets off the ground? At least that was the impression I was getting before the AMD breakup. AMD could have sold more chips but because they didn't have the fabs to manufacture enough to meet demand. At least the demand before the wheels fell off and the Empire struck back.
 

GourdFreeMan

Junior Member
Jan 28, 2009
3
0
0
Cypress came out in Sept 2009, a little less than 3yrs after they acquired ATI.

I was under the impression that the design cycle for GPUs was on the order of three years. Even if this precludes R800 from being manufactured at Global Foundries, it seems some test wafers should have been produced for AMD PR to crow about if a foundry shift was imminent.

What are the drawbacks of SOI? Despite offering better power efficiency, I was under the impression SOI offers poorer heat dissipation than the standard bulk process. This might make it less suitable for high power draw parts like GPUs... on the other hand AMD might simply be being cautious considering its financial situation.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
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Why have they not moved to SOI already?

Look at Chartered Semiconductor's revenue versus TSMC's.

chart1_060809.gif


That gives you an idea of the market-size of SOI in the foundry business (excluding AMD and GloFo) that TSMC has neglected to go after by not bothering with developing/offering their own SOI process tech to date.

Relative to bulk-Si there just hasn't been enough market to make it worth TSMC's effort and resources to go after it.

Outside of AMD's use of SOI it is pretty much a niche application when you actually start enumerating the number of IC's in the world that use SOI.

But GloFo can be a game changer there by providing leading-edge design rule SOI process tech to customers of TSMC...now it is the customers of TSMC (who compete with each other, like NV and AMD or Qualcomm and TI) who must decide whether or not they need to transition to SOI in order to stay one step ahead of (or catch back up with) their competition.

TSMC doesn't need SOI until its customers start bailing (or giving indication they are going to bail), until then TSMC determines where the bar is set for the foundry industry simply due to their marketshare.

@IDC

Isn't Global Foundries also supply constrained until their New York fab gets off the ground? At least that was the impression I was getting before the AMD breakup. AMD could have sold more chips but because they didn't have the fabs to manufacture enough to meet demand. At least the demand before the wheels fell off and the Empire struck back.

There are basically two fabs in Dresden, they are connected by a central admin office area and so they call them modules instead of seperate fabs but the relevance of this info to your question is that AMD had effectively mothballed half of their fab capacity in Dresden (one of the modules) when they transitioned from 200mm to 300mm. After the 300mm transition Intel was really putting the hurt on their marketshare and gross margins so they didn't bother to retool the other module.

So Glofo has fab space for sure, even without NY. That is why the timeline for the NY fab is so "loose and long". They are taking their sweet time with that fab buildout for good reason.

I was under the impression that the design cycle for GPUs was on the order of three years. Even if this precludes R800 from being manufactured at Global Foundries, it seems some test wafers should have been produced for AMD PR to crow about if a foundry shift was imminent.

Taping out the reticles for test wafers is costly, definitely not something you do just to make a few test wafers for PR reasons. The earliest we'd see anything like this would be 32nm provided AMD was actually taping out their next-gen GPU on GloFo's 32nm process.

Even then I'd expect minimal crowing from AMD as they transition to GloFo. It would be foolish to rub TSMC's nose in bad PR, burning that bridge, when for all AMD knows they could very well find themselves wanting to use TSMC's 16nm process instead of GloFo's in a few years time for any number of reasons.

What are the drawbacks of SOI? Despite offering better power efficiency, I was under the impression SOI offers poorer heat dissipation than the standard bulk process. This might make it less suitable for high power draw parts like GPUs... on the other hand AMD might simply be being cautious considering its financial situation.

Numerous drawbacks. Substrate cost is probably one of the largest. Intel produced some rather damning white-papers and conference presentations on SOI versus FD-SOI when they were making public their justifications for not following AMD and going with SOI.
 

jvroig

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,394
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Numerous drawbacks. Substrate cost is probably one of the largest. Intel produced some rather damning white-papers and conference presentations on SOI versus FD-SOI when they were making public their justifications for not following AMD and going with SOI.
If it has numerous drawbacks, then why is Global Foundries going SOI? And why did AMD go SOI in the first place?