Global Economy:11-21-03 Trade Tensions Mount Between U.S. and The World, 15 Nations Threaten Retaliation

[LunarRay]

Dirtboy,
Now that you folks are on speaking terms, you can see why isolationism fails. interesting cause and effectThe reason it does, is because when you can buy something for less, you have more money. When you have more money you spend it on other things. One of the primary reasons American's live the life we do is because we can't produce some things as cheaply as people can in other countries.
You won't accept the possibility that it don't matter the price if the consumer can inflate his wage to procure the same product made in America if the % of his income buys the same product in either case. Inflation works both ways.


Have we as a nation benefited from cheap foreign electronics? Hell yes we have. Half of the members of this board are probably directly or indirectly employed with something to do with a computer or electronics.
We have. But, in the process we have lost the manufacturing process here. (those jobs are there not here) It would cost more if made here but, we'd equalize income or become more productive with economies of scale. Inflation is not always bad and as it goes up it goes up because costs do... wages. It is the manufacturing that we've lost. No nation can control their own lives lest they control the manufacturing that they consume

You and I go to work because it is better for us to trade our time for money in a specific way. I don't produce my own food or make my own clothes. There's no reason to when American farmers can produce food so cheaply. Same with clothing. Why bother buying domestic when foreign manufacturing is so cheap? What this allows us to do is specialize in certain areas and frees up time to do newer and better things. Look at all the new industries that have been created because we are so efficient and because we aren't wasting time with low income producing jobs! It's fantasic. We enjoy the life we do because of it.
You'd not hear a peep from me if we had 9 million more jobs and the ones we've gained were providing livable wages. They are not and they could

If we tried to contain those jobs in the US, nobody would have them. I don't know of anybody willing to glue shoes together for 50 cents a day or whatever they are paid. It wouldn't work. So we trade them money for cheap labor. We benefit with cheap imports and they benefit with money.
Someday you may see that opportunity confront you. Where it takes two jobs to live when it used to take one.

As a race, if we are ever going to succeed in the universe, we must work together. Alienating other people on the planet will only slow things down and cause problems. If we take everyone as a whole and work towards common goals, we will succeed. One way we can do that is through free trade. After all, there's no difference between buying something in another state or another country. The principle is the same.
We agree! We will reach equilibrium with the world. That is my point. The Indian and the Chinese will each earn the same as will the fellow in Des Moines. What we disagree on is what $ amount that will be. Today you play tomorrow you may pray. They (the other nations) will never get to the level the US enjoyed but, we will have no problem getting towards theirs. In 50 - 75 or so years the worlds economy will be on an equal footing but in the process we will suffer. We can't help but suffer as the other nations develop. There is a silver lining and that is Peace. Capitalism causes peace. But, The US worker cannot live on the 1$ a day. As they earn more (maybe) we will lose less but, everything will 'woosh' toward the cheap because we demand it. We'll pay the price and have started to already. An expanding economy true... but, more effort to sustain the same level of life. We are acclimated to the prices but individual wages are decreasing relative to the costs. You'll see if you are young enough... I won't.. well maybe long enough to say 'See'.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

With in the US Competition will regulate the price.. if it goes to high someone will figure they can build or supply it cheaper and will. When this occurs in foreign countries we lose jobs.

And when it occurs in other states we (the state) lose jobs.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

We have. But, in the process we have lost the manufacturing process here. (those jobs are there not here) It would cost more if made here but, we'd equalize income or become more productive with economies of scale. Inflation is not always bad and as it goes up it goes up because costs do... wages. It is the manufacturing that we've lost. No nation can control their own lives lest they control the manufacturing that they consume

In the process, we have lost the farming process here. It would cost more if farmed here, but we'd equalize income or become more productive with economies of scale. It is the farming that we've lost. No nation can control their own lives lest they control the food that they consume.

Will SOMEBODY think about the FARMERS?!?

Someday you may see that opportunity confront you. Where it takes two jobs to live when it used to take one.

And farmers whined about the same thing. What farmer can survive by hitching a plow to his horse and farming his field of corn? It's the end of the American economy!!

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
You won't accept the possibility that it don't matter the price if the consumer can inflate his wage to procure the same product made in America if the % of his income buys the same product in either case. Inflation works both ways.

You have pointed this out multiple times and I asked you how my income was going to rise to purchase American made products that were more expensive. Your answer was that I would have to work harder and make more money to afford it. If that is the case that I have to work harder to maintain the same standard of living that I have now, that means I have become poorer. So your solution creates poverty.

Unless you have other means that we are going to earn more money, I don't see how your plan would work.

We have. But, in the process we have lost the manufacturing process here. (those jobs are there not here) It would cost more if made here but, we'd equalize income or become more productive with economies of scale. Inflation is not always bad and as it goes up it goes up because costs do... wages. It is the manufacturing that we've lost. No nation can control their own lives lest they control the manufacturing that they consume

Again, how do you propose incomes become equalized? Economies of scale works better when you can sell to more people. By limiting yourself to selling only to the US, you are missing out on the opportunity to sell to the population of the world.

We've lost manufacturing and we've gained manufacturing. Granted the losses have been greater than the gains. Why can't people control their own lives without controlling manufacturing? I don't manufacture a thing, yet I control my own life.

You'd not hear a peep from me if we had 9 million more jobs and the ones we've gained were providing livable wages. They are not and they could

9 million more jobs! We'd have more jobs than workers. The problem is, not ever job can provide a livable wage. Taco Bell can't afford to pay the person taking orders in the drive-thru $50,000 a year plus full benefits. In any economy, there will be high paying jobs and low paying jobs. Typically there are more low paying jobs, because that is how things work.

We agree! We will reach equilibrium with the world. That is my point. The Indian and the Chinese will each earn the same as will the fellow in Des Moines. What we disagree on is what $ amount that will be. Today you play tomorrow you may pray. They (the other nations) will never get to the level the US enjoyed but, we will have no problem getting towards theirs. In 50 - 75 or so years the worlds economy will be on an equal footing but in the process we will suffer. We can't help but suffer as the other nations develop. There is a silver lining and that is Peace. Capitalism causes peace. But, The US worker cannot live on the 1$ a day. As they earn more (maybe) we will lose less but, everything will 'woosh' toward the cheap because we demand it. We'll pay the price and have started to already. An expanding economy true... but, more effort to sustain the same level of life. We are acclimated to the prices but individual wages are decreasing relative to the costs. You'll see if you are young enough... I won't.. well maybe long enough to say 'See'.

There is no proof that we will suffer. We haven't yet. Why now? Why didn't this happen in the 80's?

Not everything will woosh towards the cheap. If it did, there wouldn't be any jobs in the US. But we have jobs and so do the people that make our cheap goods. I actually see wages increasing. Granted some things like housing costs have risens substantially, but that is due to a shortage in supply. Everyone wants to live close to work and in a nice place. But as far as wages go, I know many, many people making more money than their parents ever did at the same age. Today we enjoy a far better standard of living than our parents, who also enjoyed a better standard of living than their parents and so forth.

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: LunarRay

With in the US Competition will regulate the price.. if it goes to high someone will figure they can build or supply it cheaper and will. When this occurs in foreign countries we lose jobs.

And when it occurs in other states we (the state) lose jobs.

And when it occurs in the same town, the same thing happens.

 

[rjain]

Maybe if I lose my job, I should embargo all purchases from anyone. That'll make me really economically strong.

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: rjain
Maybe if I lose my job, I should embargo all purchases from anyone. That'll make me really economically strong.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: dirtboy

You have pointed this out multiple times and I asked you how my income was going to rise to purchase American made products that were more expensive. Your answer was that I would have to work harder and make more money to afford it. If that is the case that I have to work harder to maintain the same standard of living that I have now, that means I have become poorer. So your solution creates poverty.

Skulls are getting thicker and stubornness deeper but folks are slowly getting it.

As more and more Americans continue to have to settle for lower and lower paying jobs that is exactly what is taking place.

Until you, family members or close friends are affected you don't see it happening.

When it does happen you won't be the Happy Go lucky Camper you are now.

 

[rjain]

dmcowen: Thanks for finally realizing the fallacies of your previous beliefs. If you want prices to go down and not import anything, you have to pay less to American workers. Of course, they'll have to work harder to maintain the same standard of living, since the best person for the job isn't doing the job.

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Skulls are getting thicker and stubornness deeper but folks are slowly getting it.

As more and more Americans continue to have to settle for lower and lower paying jobs that is exactly what is taking place.

Until you, family members or close friends are affected you don't see it happening.

When it does happen you won't be the Happy Go lucky Camper you are now.

Let's see, our country has not been an isolationist for 200 years now. You say wages are going to fall. History proves and continues to prove that wages in America have risen and continue to rise.

Crack that through your think skull. Show me how wages have fallen in the last 200 years.

And I know it's not happening, because it isn't.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: LunarRay

With in the US Competition will regulate the price.. if it goes to high someone will figure they can build or supply it cheaper and will. When this occurs in foreign countries we lose jobs.

And when it occurs in other states we (the state) lose jobs.

This is true. Maybe. Depends on where the competition sets up shop. I'd opt for nearby due to the existing trained job base. But, it is still within the US. It is also the same Federal Tax cookie jar.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: LunarRay

We have. But, in the process we have lost the manufacturing process here. (those jobs are there not here) It would cost more if made here but, we'd equalize income or become more productive with economies of scale. Inflation is not always bad and as it goes up it goes up because costs do... wages. It is the manufacturing that we've lost. No nation can control their own lives lest they control the manufacturing that they consume

In the process, we have lost the farming process here. It would cost more if farmed here, but we'd equalize income or become more productive with economies of scale. It is the farming that we've lost. No nation can control their own lives lest they control the food that they consume.

Will SOMEBODY think about the FARMERS?!?

Someday you may see that opportunity confront you. Where it takes two jobs to live when it used to take one.

And farmers whined about the same thing. What farmer can survive by hitching a plow to his horse and farming his field of corn? It's the end of the American economy!!

I don't know much about the Farmer... other than the basics. We can produce more than we consume. We subsidize the farmer to not plant. Farmers tend to be poor. Corporate farmers have ruined the family farm. The weather can ruin a farmer and his crop.. etc.. but, I'll read up on it.. I've always thought of the farmer as safe from foreign competition. Maybe this is not so and I'd be interested in that.

 

[rjain]

Lunar: You have totally missed the point of everything I've said in this whole thread... and probably most other related threads, too... *sigh*

$5,000 in taxes hardly make up for $25,000 in lost economic stimulus. You seem so strangely fixated on taxes as the goal of a strong economy, and at the same time, so eager to reduce the strength of our economy, the basis for those taxes.

Farming used to be the way to achieve the American dream. Now look at how much more effort and intelligence you have to have to farm. Hey, look! That's EXACTLY what is happening to manufacturing. Manufacturing replaced farming, services are replacing manufacturing. Why are you ignoring the fact that this is nothing new? Even before farming, we had hunting and foraging. Agriculture KILLED the foraging industry! So many people were FORCED out of jobs!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Again, how do you propose incomes become equalized? Economies of scale works better when you can sell to more people. By limiting yourself to selling only to the US, you are missing out on the opportunity to sell to the population of the world.
----------------------------
Yeah sure if you are India, China, Taiwan etc....
You still are not paying attention. The U.S. is going backwards everyday. The U.S. will not be Manufacturing anything much less have anything to ship overseas.


---------------
We've lost manufacturing and we've gained manufacturing. Granted the losses have been greater than the gains. Why can't people control their own lives without controlling manufacturing? I don't manufacture a thing, yet I control my own life.

You admit to seeing the writing on the wall yet still refuse to own up to the enevitable. Makes no sense.

You'd not hear a peep from me if we had 9 million more jobs and the ones we've gained were providing livable wages. They are not and they could

9 million more jobs! We'd have more jobs than workers. The problem is, not ever job can provide a livable wage. Taco Bell can't afford to pay the person taking orders in the drive-thru $50,000 a year plus full benefits. In any economy, there will be high paying jobs and low paying jobs. Typically there are more low paying jobs, because that is how things work.
--------------------
Again you do hint that you do in fact see the writing on the wall. The United States full of nothing but low paying jobs.

We agree! We will reach equilibrium with the world. That is my point. The Indian and the Chinese will each earn the same as will the fellow in Des Moines. What we disagree on is what $ amount that will be. Today you play tomorrow you may pray. They (the other nations) will never get to the level the US enjoyed but, we will have no problem getting towards theirs. In 50 - 75 or so years the worlds economy will be on an equal footing but in the process we will suffer. We can't help but suffer as the other nations develop.
-------------------------------
Ah, right there you admit the U.S. is no longer the most Powerful, most innovative Nation in the world and you are perfectly fine with that. Amazing a Country full of Un-Americans and proud of it.

---------------------------------
There is a silver lining and that is Peace. Capitalism causes peace. But, The US worker cannot live on the 1$ a day. As they earn more (maybe) we will lose less but, everything will 'woosh' toward the cheap because we demand it. We'll pay the price and have started to already. An expanding economy true... but, more effort to sustain the same level of life. We are acclimated to the prices but individual wages are decreasing relative to the costs. You'll see if you are young enough... I won't.. well maybe long enough to say 'See'.

------------------------------
As soon as they are affected, they will say OMG, those old timers on AT saw it coming so much longer than I, what was wrong with me? Try looking up an old saying called "Rose Colored Glasses".


There is no proof that we will suffer. We haven't yet. Why now? Why didn't this happen in the 80's?
----------------------------
Just because you are not suffering does not mean many Americans are not suffering. Selfish, bullheaded and arrogant, what a lovely discription for Americans that are in the Have Category.

-------------------------
Not everything will woosh towards the cheap. If it did, there wouldn't be any jobs in the US. But we have jobs and so do the people that make our cheap goods. I actually see wages increasing. Granted some things like housing costs have risens substantially, but that is due to a shortage in supply. Everyone wants to live close to work and in a nice place. But as far as wages go, I know many, many people making more money than their parents ever did at the same age. Today we enjoy a far better standard of living than our parents, who also enjoyed a better standard of living than their parents and so forth.

For 6 decades since WWII it was true of the U.S. that each generation did better than the previous, sadly that is no more.

 

[rjain]

Dave: And the US has lost farming. What is your point? That our economy died 100 years ago?

Are you saying that jobs that produce low-cost goods are higher paying than jobs that give high-cost services? Are you saying that because Americans are not competitive compared to other people that we should deny ourselves the ability to benefit from the other peoples' low-cost manufacturing?

If my job is low paying, then I guess I'd earn $200,000 a year if I moved to India or China. Hah.

Lazy, greedy, and ignorant, what a lovely description for Americans in the have-not-and-want-to-blame-the-whole-world category.

WWII was well into the emergence of manufacturing-based economy. Try looking at 1900, we're there again, and on our way to the next economic cycle. If you claim that we are in a bad situation now, we must have been even worse off in 1900, as the domination of manufacturing and the loss of farming must have pushed us lower and lower.

You say things about the world, but they don't match the facts. Are you trying to get a job at the NY Times?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: dirtboy

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I'll rejoin after this cools down below the calling of folks 'Idiot' We can disagree on the color of an orange but why become personal?

Because he said low prices are bad, then he says he buys AMD because Intel's prices are too high. If that is not idiocy, I don't know what is.

The man doesn't even stand for his own beliefs.

The personal actions of a person may or may not be consistent with their philosophy. I buy computers and parts without regard to their place of manufacture. I own a Toyota .. two of them. Just about everything but the wood in my house is non US made. BUT! My philosophy is Demand Sided and Isolationist (not immediate and only if we can't compete globaly) Am I an idiot... (don't answer that )
Low prices based on imported goods is not good because they are imported - the premise. I buy AMD vs Intel because AMD is cheaper and because I'm not going to spend more of MY $ without a reason, I'm not going to waste my money - the premise. Hypocritical? I don't think so because I can't change the economy any more than I can change the tides. I don't agree with the tide destroying my sand castle but, I've to live with its reality.. The changes come from the folks in DC and until they change I've to live as a realist not an Idealist.. I'll applaud the efforts of the Idealist (as an INFJ I am one) but, my applause is all I can offer.

Now that you folks are on speaking terms, you can see why isolationism fails. The reason it does, is because when you can buy something for less, you have more money. When you have more money you spend it on other things. One of the primary reasons American's live the life we do is because we can't produce some things as cheaply as people can in other countries.

Have we as a nation benefited from cheap foreign electronics? Hell yes we have. Half of the members of this board are probably directly or indirectly employed with something to do with a computer or electronics.

You and I go to work because it is better for us to trade our time for money in a specific way. I don't produce my own food or make my own clothes. There's no reason to when American farmers can produce food so cheaply. Same with clothing. Why bother buying domestic when foreign manufacturing is so cheap? What this allows us to do is specialize in certain areas and frees up time to do newer and better things. Look at all the new industries that have been created because we are so efficient and because we aren't wasting time with low income producing jobs! It's fantasic. We enjoy the life we do because of it.

If we tried to contain those jobs in the US, nobody would have them. I don't know of anybody willing to glue shoes together for 50 cents a day or whatever they are paid. It wouldn't work. So we trade them money for cheap labor. We benefit with cheap imports and they benefit with money.

As a race, if we are ever going to succeed in the universe, we must work together. Alienating other people on the planet will only slow things down and cause problems. If we take everyone as a whole and work towards common goals, we will succeed. One way we can do that is through free trade. After all, there's no difference between buying something in another state or another country. The principle is the same.

This post pretty much explains why the US can't become a Closed Economy, there simply is not enough Americans(US citizens) to maintain the level of Goods availability that exist now.

Perhaps it is true that a Closed Economy would employ everyone, but you would end up with Less Goods and certainly less Selection of Goods at the end of the day. Not only that, but the US Economy would become Inflexible and unable to adopt new Technology/Products as the Labour Force would be at 100% capacity 100% of the time. If the RoW continued along the path of Globalization, the US would soon find itself falling way behind as the RoW would have an almost Infinite amount of Labour Resources in which to expand.

The Achilles Heal of such a plan though is Oil, the US simply does not have enough of it. If OPEC or other Oil Producers didn't take action against US Tarrifs, then things would be not too bad, but if Oil Prices were manipulated in order to Punish the US for Tarrifs the US Economy would crash under the burden. The Good Ol' Days are gone, in large part because the Natural Resources that made the US Rich have been used up, but also because the US has made much of its' recent Wealth by relying on cheap Resources/Goods from other parts of the World. Going back to a Closed Economy would cause a prolonged Economic Depression and likely would lead to the collapse of the whole US itself.

 

[dmcowen674]

11-11-2003 EU, Asia Urge U.S. to End Steel Tariffs

The EU has said it will slap retaliatory duties on $2.2 billion of U.S. goods if the steel duties, approved by President Bush in March 2002, remain in place after a final confirmation of the WTO ruling early next month.

The goods targeted by the EU sanctions plan are designed to have a political as well as economic impact as Bush seeks a second presidential term next year.

One group is citrus products from Florida, where Bush's brother is governor and which was the key to the president's 2000 election win.

"We hope, in light of this decision, that President Bush will act quickly to remove the 201 (import) restrictions, so that we can get on with supplying our U.S. customers on a fair and equitable basis," said Anglo-Dutch group Corus, Europe's third-largest steel maker.

The EU has insisted there is no link between the trade rows. "I suspect it is partly on a separate track," said former Canadian ambassador to the WTO John Weekes.

But he added: "EU and U.S. trade relations are possibly at their worst point since the WTO was launched (in 1995).

"It has always been easier to resist protectionism or the taking of defensive action if actively engaged in a process of trade liberalization."
---------------------------------------------------------
Who started this WTO in1995, who gave them the power to control, dictate and extort?

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Yeah sure if you are India, China, Taiwan etc....
You still are not paying attention. The U.S. is going backwards everyday. The U.S. will not be Manufacturing anything much less have anything to ship overseas.

Where is your proof!! In fact, worldwide manufacturing is down, except in certain place. Do some research and you'll see that we aren't the only country losing manufacturing to cheap labor countries like Korea.

We've lost manufacturing and we've gained manufacturing. Granted the losses have been greater than the gains. Why can't people control their own lives without controlling manufacturing? I don't manufacture a thing, yet I control my own life.

You admit to seeing the writing on the wall yet still refuse to own up to the enevitable. Makes no sense.

Once again you fail to answer my question and prove your point. How do I lose control without manufacturing? How can I own up to the ineveitable when you can't even explain your point??

Again you do hint that you do in fact see the writing on the wall. The United States full of nothing but low paying jobs.

Prove it. Oh wait, you can't. So you won't reply to this post, just like all the others you refuse to because you are wrong.

We agree! We will reach equilibrium with the world. That is my point. The Indian and the Chinese will each earn the same as will the fellow in Des Moines. What we disagree on is what $ amount that will be. Today you play tomorrow you may pray. They (the other nations) will never get to the level the US enjoyed but, we will have no problem getting towards theirs. In 50 - 75 or so years the worlds economy will be on an equal footing but in the process we will suffer. We can't help but suffer as the other nations develop.

Ah, right there you admit the U.S. is no longer the most Powerful, most innovative Nation in the world and you are perfectly fine with that. Amazing a Country full of Un-Americans and proud of it.

hahaha You are so dumb you can't figure out my words from someone else's. I have never adminted the US is no longer the most powerful or innovative nation. You are more un-American than anyone else I know. You hate everything that has made this country great.

As soon as they are affected, they will say OMG, those old timers on AT saw it coming so much longer than I, what was wrong with me? Try looking up an old saying called "Rose Colored Glasses".

Since the beginning of time there has always been people claiming doom and gloom. You aren't the first and won't be the last. It's a shame you lack the education to actually understand how the world words. Try looking up the word "pessimist" because that is what you are.

Just because you are not suffering does not mean many Americans are not suffering. Selfish, bullheaded and arrogant, what a lovely discription for Americans that are in the Have Category.

I drive all over town and I see shopping centers full of cars and people out doing things. I don't see homeless people or people begging for money or for food. Show me where all these suffering people are.

For 6 decades since WWII it was true of the U.S. that each generation did better than the previous, sadly that is no more.

Try looking up an old saying called "Wrong". Those days aren't over. The fact is, years from now you'll still be spouting your doom and gloom, meanwhile the rest of the US will be better off, just like we always have been.

It sure must be miserable being you.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: rjain
Lunar: You have totally missed the point of everything I've said in this whole thread... and probably most other related threads, too... *sigh*

$5,000 in taxes hardly make up for $25,000 in lost economic stimulus. You seem so strangely fixated on taxes as the goal of a strong economy, and at the same time, so eager to reduce the strength of our economy, the basis for those taxes.

Farming used to be the way to achieve the American dream. Now look at how much more effort and intelligence you have to have to farm. Hey, look! That's EXACTLY what is happening to manufacturing. Manufacturing replaced farming, services are replacing manufacturing. Why are you ignoring the fact that this is nothing new? Even before farming, we had hunting and foraging. Agriculture KILLED the foraging industry! So many people were FORCED out of jobs!

You may not notice it but my focus is simply two things and two things only. I don't care how we get there but there is where I'd want to be. The first is; full employment for every willing US Citizen wishing to work with the rate of pay that maintains the average rate of pay (all workers wages / all workers) that was had say in the '90s. The second is; a fiscal/trade policy geared toward reduction of both the national debt and the trade debt. That is move to a trade credit status and pay down the debt to reflect a lower GNP %. The parts of the fiscal policy that enable this should be focused on the people of the US and not every where else.
That is about it. All the things I've been writing were in response to all the OK but, HOW... If you think the trade debt is of no problem and the move to a euro denominated oil is fine... well.. no need to dialog.. we'll just leave it there.

 

[rjain]

Lunar: The reason we're in this recession is because of the crap that happened in the 90's. And we didn't have 0% unemployment in the 90's at any time. In fact, it's never happened, since we're not a communist country.

The debt is already at a lower % of GNP than it has been at similar points in economic cycles in the past. If we want a trade credit, then we'll have to lower our standard of living to stop consuming so many goods.

Why does the currency of denomination of some commodity make a difference? It'll still move in response to supply and demand, along with the movements of the currencies which consume and produce that commodity.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: rjain
Lunar: The reason we're in this recession is because of the crap that happened in the 90's. And we didn't have 0% unemployment in the 90's at any time. In fact, it's never happened, since we're not a communist country.

The debt is already at a lower % of GNP than it has been at similar points in economic cycles in the past. If we want a trade credit, then we'll have to lower our standard of living to stop consuming so many goods.

Why does the currency of denomination of some commodity make a difference? It'll still move in response to supply and demand, along with the movements of the currencies which consume and produce that commodity.

Oh, I thought the "Recession" was over Nov 2001? So what is it called from March 2001 till now November 2003?

 

[dirtboy]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: rjain
Lunar: The reason we're in this recession is because of the crap that happened in the 90's. And we didn't have 0% unemployment in the 90's at any time. In fact, it's never happened, since we're not a communist country.

The debt is already at a lower % of GNP than it has been at similar points in economic cycles in the past. If we want a trade credit, then we'll have to lower our standard of living to stop consuming so many goods.

Why does the currency of denomination of some commodity make a difference? It'll still move in response to supply and demand, along with the movements of the currencies which consume and produce that commodity.

Oh, I thought the "Recession" was over Nov 2001? So what is it called from March 2001 till now November 2003?

Normal.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: rjain

Lunar: The reason we're in this recession is because of the crap that happened in the 90's. And we didn't have 0% unemployment in the 90's at any time. In fact, it's never happened, since we're not a communist country.

I don't recall saying 0% in the '90s. I said what I said! I'd want full employment available to all Americans at a livable wage...

The debt is already at a lower % of GNP than it has been at similar points in economic cycles in the past. If we want a trade credit, then we'll have to lower our standard of living to stop consuming so many goods.

I don't recall saying it wasn't. I said what I said! That I'd want it to be a lower % of the GNP. You think the stuff we buy that is foreign made is that much cheaper than if it was made in America. I don't think that is the case. I think our markets were sold to at significant loss for the long term gain. In the '70s and '80s that was the cry and no one listened. Now lots are convinced. Fine by me! Unfair trade practices never occured to Kodak in Japan or Auto comming to America from Japan not to mention the currency manipulations..

Why does the currency of denomination of some commodity make a difference? It'll still move in response to supply and demand, along with the movements of the currencies which consume and produce that commodity.

Well... to open another can of worms seems stupid for me to do... again.. but! I'll try... then run and hide...
We benefit greatly by running a trade deficit as most nations have to hold US$ to pay for oil and other commodities. This gives us free credit in a manner. When we buy oil we pay $. IF we had to lets say tomorrow buy just oil using the euro all these countries who now hold US$ to pay for their stuff would dump $ and hold euros. We'd have to buy euros and pony up the 2 or 3 trillion $ in accumulated trade debt into euros. The $ would drop (good for exports) but, the effect of the buying would put us into a bad headache.
The EEO is about to become the largest market in the world. They have a united policy and currency and soon they will be the tail that wags the dog... hold on tight... you are about to feel movement. I doubt you'll like it.

 

[rjain]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: rjain

Lunar: The reason we're in this recession is because of the crap that happened in the 90's. And we didn't have 0% unemployment in the 90's at any time. In fact, it's never happened, since we're not a communist country.

I don't recall saying 0% in the '90s. I said what I said! I'd want full employment available to all Americans at a livable wage...

OK, maybe I misunderstood. You want bubble-wages at 0% unemployment. That is, you want a stronger economy than we've had even in a bubble. Wow. In any case, we're not going to get that by crippling the ability of our citizens to get products at the best prices possible, thereby increasing the wage that is livable.

The debt is already at a lower % of GNP than it has been at similar points in economic cycles in the past. If we want a trade credit, then we'll have to lower our standard of living to stop consuming so many goods.

I don't recall saying it wasn't. I said what I said! That I'd want it to be a lower % of the GNP.

And I said that the current debt is already low. Do you really want to cripple our economy that much?

You think the stuff we buy that is foreign made is that much cheaper than if it was made in America. I don't think that is the case.

If that were the case, then why do we even bother importing that stuff? If we already have it for less here, why don't we take what we already have?

I think our markets were sold to at significant loss for the long term gain. In the '70s and '80s that was the cry and no one listened. Now lots are convinced. Fine by me!

They weren't a monopoly, so they shouldn't have price controls enforced on them. If they have a strong enough business to manage that, so be it. However ...

Unfair trade practices never occured to Kodak in Japan or Auto comming to America from Japan not to mention the currency manipulations..

And look where that put Japan in the 90s.

Why does the currency of denomination of some commodity make a difference? It'll still move in response to supply and demand, along with the movements of the currencies which consume and produce that commodity.

Well... to open another can of worms seems stupid for me to do... again.. but! I'll try... then run and hide...
We benefit greatly by running a trade deficit as most nations have to hold US$ to pay for oil and other commodities. This gives us free credit in a manner. When we buy oil we pay $. IF we had to lets say tomorrow buy just oil using the euro all these countries who now hold US$ to pay for their stuff would dump $ and hold euros. We'd have to buy euros and pony up the 2 or 3 trillion $ in accumulated trade debt into euros. The $ would drop (good for exports) but, the effect of the buying would put us into a bad headache.
The EEO is about to become the largest market in the world. They have a united policy and currency and soon they will be the tail that wags the dog... hold on tight... you are about to feel movement. I doubt you'll like it.

So which is it? Do you want the dollar to dominate trade or do you want a trade surplus? You claim you want both and you claim that they are mutually exclusive.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: rjain

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: rjain

Lunar: The reason we're in this recession is because of the crap that happened in the 90's. And we didn't have 0% unemployment in the 90's at any time. In fact, it's never happened, since we're not a communist country.

I don't recall saying 0% in the '90s. I said what I said! I'd want full employment available to all Americans at a livable wage...

OK, maybe I misunderstood. You want bubble-wages at 0% unemployment. That is, you want a stronger economy than we've had even in a bubble. Wow. In any case, we're not going to get that by crippling the ability of our citizens to get products at the best prices possible, thereby increasing the wage that is livable.
IF... IF we have full employment at livable wages (which is what I said) I don't care what else happens. It will anyway but, at the current way the Multi-Nationals are cross invested (if one can follow it) the US would have to reduce its wage level to compete and get those jobs. So....... it follows that to achieve full employment at livable wages something else must happen. Guess what that is?

The debt is already at a lower % of GNP than it has been at similar points in economic cycles in the past. If we want a trade credit, then we'll have to lower our standard of living to stop consuming so many goods.

I don't recall saying it wasn't. I said what I said! That I'd want it to be a lower % of the GNP.

And I said that the current debt is already low. Do you really want to cripple our economy that much?
Geepers... IF we had full employment we'd have more revenue going into the tax hopper and be able to reduce the debt through a systematic budget surplus allocation to debt and to Social Programs to a B/E. Debt is or used to be used to fund capital needs not current operating deficits except in time of recessionary down ticks then pay it back... like a line of credit..

You think the stuff we buy that is foreign made is that much cheaper than if it was made in America. I don't think that is the case.

If that were the case, then why do we even bother importing that stuff? If we already have it for less here, why don't we take what we already have?
because the Multi-Nationals are using the cash flow to invest in Egypt, India and where ever cheap labor lives. Nike don't sell sneakers cheap and neither does Toyota sell cars cheap. We assemble the cars for them using their parts and how many US man hours per car is in a Camry vs a F150

I think our markets were sold to at significant loss for the long term gain. In the '70s and '80s that was the cry and no one listened. Now lots are convinced. Fine by me!

They weren't a monopoly, so they shouldn't have price controls enforced on them. If they have a strong enough business to manage that, so be it. However ...

Unfair trade practices never occured to Kodak in Japan or Auto comming to America from Japan not to mention the currency manipulations..

And look where that put Japan in the 90s.
Our companies were screaming till they got wise and understood the big picture. The one where there is One World Order. So they know where the bread is and the butter. They play along in hopes of driving the boat down the road a ways (take it both ways). I went to Europe in '80 to set up a factory because the labor was cheaper (Ireland) and the tax was waived on exports. Where did we export to, you ask? Why right back here. We built up tax free $ because we closed down the US plant and had no presence here. Set up Bahama Company and used the tax savings to expand in Kuwait, Egypt, So. Africa etc..

Why does the currency of denomination of some commodity make a difference? It'll still move in response to supply and demand, along with the movements of the currencies which consume and produce that commodity.

Well... to open another can of worms seems stupid for me to do... again.. but! I'll try... then run and hide...
We benefit greatly by running a trade deficit as most nations have to hold US$ to pay for oil and other commodities. This gives us free credit in a manner. When we buy oil we pay $. IF we had to lets say tomorrow buy just oil using the euro all these countries who now hold US$ to pay for their stuff would dump $ and hold euros. We'd have to buy euros and pony up the 2 or 3 trillion $ in accumulated trade debt into euros. The $ would drop (good for exports) but, the effect of the buying would put us into a bad headache.
The EEO is about to become the largest market in the world. They have a united policy and currency and soon they will be the tail that wags the dog... hold on tight... you are about to feel movement. I doubt you'll like it.

So which is it? Do you want the dollar to dominate trade or do you want a trade surplus? You claim you want both and you claim that they are mutually exclusive.
I'd like to get rid of the accumulated trade debt of nearly 3 trillion and climbing via a net trade surplus or credit so if the euro takes over because of dynamics that could occur we'd be in better stead. I'd like to see $ denominated commodities continue. They are not at the expense of each other.