Global Dimming

[IdaGno]

Global Dimming video link

 

[Lemon law]

Being on dial up, I don't have the time to load the link and accurately comment on the link itself. But from my prior knowledge of the subject--global dimming is very real
and readily measurable with low tech instrumentation---its lone bright side is that global warming would be far worse without the dimming---and its real curse is that we ever reform
and cease pumping soot into the atmosphere, global dimming with tend to go away and global warming will kick in with a vengeance.

But us foolish humans are playing around with things we ill understand---and when we reach a tipping point--we may get a climate we really don't like---and there will be no reversing the effects by any amount of reform. But lots of evidence now exists that a massive arctic melt off could stop the gulf stream---and then trigger all kinds of effects thereafter.

So far global warming has only altered air masses--if it ever has a major impact on ocean currents---its gonna get really big real fast. Until then---there will be those who deny the science.

 

[Stunt]

Global Dimming Researcher: "My friend's reaction was your ideas contradict global warming; do you know how many billions of dollars are spent on global warming"

Global Temperature going up, solar energy and evapouration going down.

 

[GoPackGo]

I thought a lot of the ocean currents had to do with the moons gravitational effects?

 

[ElFenix]

apparently global warming can be fixed with a little bit of sulfur.

 

[Cruise51]

Great video IdaGno, very informative.

Originally posted by: ElFenix
apparently global warming can be fixed with a little bit of sulfur.

To a certain degree. Though I'm not sure I'd like the side effects.

 

[slash196]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
apparently global warming can be fixed with a little bit of sulfur.

That's like saying cancer can be fixed with a little bit of chemicals.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
apparently global warming can be fixed with a little bit of sulfur.

Hehe, as the documentary points out though, because Greenhouse Gasses keep increasing, you'll have to keep increasing the Sulfur and other Particulate pollution until people can't breathe anymore. Not exactly a solution.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
I thought a lot of the ocean currents had to do with the moons gravitational effects?

That's the Tides, not the Currents.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
I thought a lot of the ocean currents had to do with the moons gravitational effects?

That's the Tides, not the Currents.

Currents
Currents are the horizontal, unidirectional flow of water. Ocean currents influence the weather in coastal areas. In order to map and predict currents,scientists release floating buoys and track their positions.

The horizontal movement of water is caused by a number factors. These include:


Wind moving over the water. Currents are caused by friction between the wind and the surface of the water. Most currents in the upper kilometer of the ocean are driven by the wind. They are called surface currents. Wind-driven currents affect about 20% of the ocean, by volume. These are the currents that most people know about. The sun is the source of winds in the atmosphere and currents in the ocean. Once the surface currents are set in motion by the wind, they are influenced by the Coriolis effect, the presence of coasts or landmasses (which get in the way of moving water), and horizontal pressure gradients (the force per unit area that causes molecules of water to move horizontally from regions of high pressure to regions of low pressure).


Differences in salinity (caused by precipitation, evaporation, and freshwater inflow from estuaries). See course notes on salinity. Salinity differences cause thermohaline circulation or vertical movements of ocean water masses because of density differences that are controlled by variations in temperature and salinty.


Differences in water temperatures caused by uneven heating of the Earth's atmosphere by the Sun. Cold water is more dense than warm water, and as a result, tends to sink to the ocean bottoms and spread. Cold water originates at high latitudes where cold winds blow across the water, and cool and evaporate it. If the temperatures are low enough, sea ice will form, which is made of fresher water than sea water. Salts are left behind in the sea water when sea ice forms. The cold, salty water becomes more dense and sinks deep into the ocean. Note that cold water can hold more oxygen than warmer water, so bottom waters in the world's oceans tend to be well oxygenated.


The Coriolis Effect which is a consequence of the Earth's rotation. See course notes on Coriolis Effect. In general, the Coriolis Effect is an apparent deflection of a freely moving object caused by the Earth's rotation. As a result, objects in the northern hemisphere are deflected toward the right (clockwise), whereas objects in the southern hemisphere are deflected toward the left (counterclockwise). The influence of the Earth's rotation on currents was first noted in 1835 by Gaspar de Coriolis.


Gravitational pull of celestial bodies (tidal currents).

 

[wazzledoozle]

******.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
I thought a lot of the ocean currents had to do with the moons gravitational effects?

That's the Tides, not the Currents.

Currents
Currents are the horizontal, unidirectional flow of water. Ocean currents influence the weather in coastal areas. In order to map and predict currents,scientists release floating buoys and track their positions.

The horizontal movement of water is caused by a number factors. These include:


Wind moving over the water. Currents are caused by friction between the wind and the surface of the water. Most currents in the upper kilometer of the ocean are driven by the wind. They are called surface currents. Wind-driven currents affect about 20% of the ocean, by volume. These are the currents that most people know about. The sun is the source of winds in the atmosphere and currents in the ocean. Once the surface currents are set in motion by the wind, they are influenced by the Coriolis effect, the presence of coasts or landmasses (which get in the way of moving water), and horizontal pressure gradients (the force per unit area that causes molecules of water to move horizontally from regions of high pressure to regions of low pressure).


Differences in salinity (caused by precipitation, evaporation, and freshwater inflow from estuaries). See course notes on salinity. Salinity differences cause thermohaline circulation or vertical movements of ocean water masses because of density differences that are controlled by variations in temperature and salinty.


Differences in water temperatures caused by uneven heating of the Earth's atmosphere by the Sun. Cold water is more dense than warm water, and as a result, tends to sink to the ocean bottoms and spread. Cold water originates at high latitudes where cold winds blow across the water, and cool and evaporate it. If the temperatures are low enough, sea ice will form, which is made of fresher water than sea water. Salts are left behind in the sea water when sea ice forms. The cold, salty water becomes more dense and sinks deep into the ocean. Note that cold water can hold more oxygen than warmer water, so bottom waters in the world's oceans tend to be well oxygenated.


The Coriolis Effect which is a consequence of the Earth's rotation. See course notes on Coriolis Effect. In general, the Coriolis Effect is an apparent deflection of a freely moving object caused by the Earth's rotation. As a result, objects in the northern hemisphere are deflected toward the right (clockwise), whereas objects in the southern hemisphere are deflected toward the left (counterclockwise). The influence of the Earth's rotation on currents was first noted in 1835 by Gaspar de Coriolis.


Gravitational pull of celestial bodies (tidal currents).

Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. So we're both kinda correct. The Tidal Currents are indeed affected by the Moon. However, the deeper currents are not. When discussing "Currents" changing it is mainly assumed the Currents in question are the deeper currents unaffected by the moon.

 

[Lemon law]

The point being--water carries heat far better than air---and if the gulf stream is stopped places like England and Scandanavia would get super cold as they are artifically warmed by the gulf stream.

But if you think of an Ocean current as kind of a convayer belt---when it gets stopped in one places
the force driving it just keeps driving the belt forward---until the belt piles up and no force can drive more of it foreward---and if there is a massive arctic ice melt off---the cold salty water will no longer sink as readily---which means heat will no longer be efficently resdistruted from the warm equatorial waters upwards toward the Northern latitudes--resulting in major climate change---and the gulf stream is just one of many major world ocean currents---with other somewhat now currently cylical--like the one that produces El Nino effect in the southern hemishere in the Pacific ---and that in turn will effect the probable number of Alantic Ocean hurracaines.

All in the rhelm of ill understood stuff that effects the climate of the entire world---and when man kind messes with mother nature---Ma Nature has some real powers to bite back with.

 

[daveshel]

So the polar ice has melted, but now the dimming is diminishing the effect. Let's say it continues, and as the gulf stream and the others like it stop warming England and Scandanavia and Alaska (?), then the waters around these places turn to ice. So this ice has replaced what has melted, but it's in different locations. We know that the Earth wobbles on its axis, causing seasons. A redistribution of icepacks could possibly increase ot decrease the wobble, eh?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: daveshel
So the polar ice has melted, but now the dimming is diminishing the effect. Let's say it continues, and as the gulf stream and the others like it stop warming England and Scandanavia and Alaska (?), then the waters around these places turn to ice. So this ice has replaced what has melted, but it's in different locations. We know that the Earth wobbles on its axis, causing seasons. A redistribution of icepacks could possibly increase ot decrease the wobble, eh?

Who knows? Could happen, the Wobble, but I don't know if that has any affect on it(the Ice packs). The Ice may "move", at least that sounds reasonable, but that transition could possibly take a long time. In the meantime, where we can grow Food and all sorts of changes in Climate altering Home Heating/Air Conditioning needs, Water supply availability, Health Care changes due to shifting ranges wherein Diseases can breed, and other factors our existance takes for granted are wreaking havoc by constantly forcing us to adapt.

 

[miketheidiot]

that was a little depressing.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
that was a little depressing.

True enough.

 

[Lemon law]

The other point missed here is that we can keep pumping in greenhouse gasses---which get into the air and stay for long periods of time---while global dimming is caused by particulate matter---soot is a way to look at it---and the soot won't last long if we reform---and then global warming due to greenhouse gasses will really kick in.

And while we are talking gloom and doom---don't forget the methane hydrates in abundance locked up in cold ocean bottoms in a meta stable state---if that stuff starts to bubble out into the atmoshere, we will find methane is a first class greenhouse gas---and apparently its happened more than once in the geological record.

 

[judasmachine]

even the CIA Fact Book lists the greatest enviornmental threat as desertification. Now all we need is a Muad Dib.

 

[sandorski]

...and some Sand Worms

 

[soccerballtux]

Keep in mind people, in the 60's-80's the scientists were declaring we were moving into another iceage.

I say give it another 35 years and if we're still warming up then we know it's not a cycle, and we do something. Until then, well, we be a little careful but don't go overboard.

This topic is far too politically charged and has so much potential money involved it's naive to believe only one side is lying.

Any funding we put towards this needs to go to nuclear fusion technology. That's the only real ultimate fix. Until then we need to replace our coal facilities with pebble-bed reactors, or other reactors with numerous redundancies to ensure nothing bad happens. Then we need to reward employees that tattle on their companies for not following code down to the letter. There aren't any problems with pebble-bed reactors, and the safety issues with other reactors are issues only created in the presence of gross incompetence. There's no reason we shouldn't use nuclear power.

 

[Cruise51]

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Keep in mind people, in the 60's-80's the scientists were declaring we were moving into another iceage.

I say give it another 35 years and if we're still warming up then we know it's not a cycle, and we do something. Until then, well, we be a little careful but don't go overboard.

This topic is far too politically charged and has so much potential money involved it's naive to believe only one side is lying.

Any funding we put towards this needs to go to nuclear fusion technology. That's the only real ultimate fix. Until then we need to replace our coal facilities with pebble-bed reactors, or other reactors with numerous redundancies to ensure nothing bad happens. Then we need to reward employees that tattle on their companies for not following code down to the letter. There aren't any problems with pebble-bed reactors, and the safety issues with other reactors are issues only created in the presence of gross incompetence. There's no reason we shouldn't use nuclear power.

For all we know, in 35 years it may be too late.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: Cruise51

Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Keep in mind people, in the 60's-80's the scientists were declaring we were moving into another iceage.

I say give it another 35 years and if we're still warming up then we know it's not a cycle, and we do something. Until then, well, we be a little careful but don't go overboard.

This topic is far too politically charged and has so much potential money involved it's naive to believe only one side is lying.

Any funding we put towards this needs to go to nuclear fusion technology. That's the only real ultimate fix. Until then we need to replace our coal facilities with pebble-bed reactors, or other reactors with numerous redundancies to ensure nothing bad happens. Then we need to reward employees that tattle on their companies for not following code down to the letter. There aren't any problems with pebble-bed reactors, and the safety issues with other reactors are issues only created in the presence of gross incompetence. There's no reason we shouldn't use nuclear power.

For all we know, in 35 years it may be too late.

I doubt it would be too late in 35 years but it will be significantly cheaper to attempt to fix now.

 

[slash196]

The sooner we take action the easier it will be. Or we could just destroy the entire world, who cares? Our kids will have to worry about it, not us.