Give Gaza to Egypt

[kermalou]

was reading my daily "news" sites and came upon this.

it has some interesting points.

http://www.danielpipes.org/article/5426

Startling developments in Gaza highlight the need for a change in Western policy toward this troubled territory of 1.3 million persons.

Gaza's contemporary history began in 1948, when Egyptian forces overran the British-controlled area and Cairo sponsored the nominal "All-Palestine Government" while de facto ruling the territory as a protectorate. That arrangement ended in 1967, when the Israeli leadership defensively took control of Gaza, reluctantly inheriting a densely populated, poor, and hostile territory.

Washington and other capitals should declare the experiment in Gazan self-rule a failure and press President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt to help, perhaps providing Gaza with additional land or even annexing it as a province. This would revert to the situation of 1948-67, except this time Cairo would not keep Gaza at arm's length but take responsibility for it.

Culturally, this connection is a natural: Gazans speak a colloquial Arabic identical to the Egyptians of Sinai, have more family ties to Egypt than to the West Bank, and are economically more tied to Egypt (recall the many smugglers' tunnels). Further, Hamas derives from an Egyptian organization, the Muslim Brethren. As David Warren of the Ottawa Citizen notes, calling Gazans "Palestinians" is less accurate than politically correct.

Why not formalize the Egyptian connection? Among other benefits, this would (1) end the rocket fire against Israel, (2) expose the superficiality of Palestinian nationalism, an ideology under a century old, and perhaps (3) break the Arab-Israeli logjam.

It's hard to divine what benefit American taxpayers have received for the US$65 billion they have lavished on Egypt since 1948; but Egypt's absorbing Gaza might justify their continuing to shell out $1.8 billion a year.

I know most of you will start saying that what have we gotten for all the aid to Israel and yada yada yade, but what have we gotten from Egypt?

 

[yllus]

Major issue: Egypt doesn't want either the land or the people.

 

[GrGr]

Ahaha, the Zionists (Pipes in this case) are trying to dump the Palestinian "problem".

Just make Israel/Palestine one modern secular state with equal rights for all and religious freedom. Easy as pie.

 

[Nebor]

Won't work. The Palestinians would still fire rockets into Israel, only under this proposal, the Israeli military would have to clash with the Egyptian military in order to put a stop to it.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: yllus
Major issue: Egypt doesn't want either the land or the people.

Solution: We'll give the land to the first nation that wants it!

 

[Mxylplyx]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Ahaha, the Zionists (Pipes in this case) are trying to dump the Palestinian "problem".

Just make Israel/Palestine one modern secular state with equal rights for all and religious freedom. Easy as pie.

If you think it is that simple, you are an idiot.

 

[narcotic]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Just make Israel/Palestine one modern secular state with equal rights for all and religious freedom. Easy as pie.

You should take advantage of your talent and write science fiction books.

If I wasn't clear enough, what you suggested might be a great idea for the Palestinians, but a very very bad one for the Israelies, so its not going to happen, probably ever.

 

[dphantom]

The Arabs have never really wanted the Palestinians and it is very doubtful Egypt would want the mess that is Gaza. So I do not see Egypt taking backing the strip, but rather attempting to restore the status quo.

 

[jjones]

What on earth would induce Egypt to accept something like this, let alone the Palestinians in Gaza? The existing situation favors the Egyptians and the writer expects them to entertain a losing situation out of the goodness of their hearts? Might as well ask Jordan to pony up and take the West Bank population into their lands and cede the West Bank lands to Israel while we're at it. Hey, it makes sense, look on any map.

As for the money Egypt gets from the US, I'm pretty sure that's always been considered bribery to keep them on the fence about Israel.

 

[Lemon law]

Given that Israel gave back the Sinai desert to Egypt years ago, someone please explain how they have any say in what they no longer have even a dubious claim to. Which was the proposal of the Rabbi in a previous thread. And since that won't fly, they now want to get rid of the Palestinians they stole good land from and give them and the worthless Gaza to an Egypt that does not want it.

What a deal for Israel. But maybe they should ask Egypt first before they open their mouths
and close their hearts.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Nebor
Won't work. The Palestinians would still fire rockets into Israel, only under this proposal, the Israeli military would have to clash with the Egyptian military in order to put a stop to it.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Given that Israel gave back the Sinai desert to Egypt years ago, someone please explain how they have any say in what they no longer have even a dubious claim to. Which was the proposal of the Rabbi in a previous thread. And since that won't fly, they now want to get rid of the Palestinians they stole good land from and give them and the worthless Gaza to an Egypt that does not want it.

What a deal for Israel. But maybe they should ask Egypt first before they open their mouths
and close their hearts.

that other thread:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2147897&enterthread=y

And I'll repeat what I said there: Egypt would never allow this "idea" to happen anyways... While displacing the Palestinians is certainly not a new idea, it's a well-known fact that no country in the Arab world is willing to take them in. The Palestinians are a very convenient political tool throughout the ME, but none of the other Islamic governments actually give a sh*t about the longterm survival of the Palestinian people themselves; and they'd certainly never allow them to take up permanent residence anywhere on their soil - even if the "soil" was donated to them as well!

 

[MovingTarget]

That sounds about as feasible as giving the West Bank back to Jordan. They don't want to deal with that mess.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Ahaha, the Zionists (Pipes in this case) are trying to dump the Palestinian "problem".

Just make Israel/Palestine one modern secular state with equal rights for all and religious freedom. Easy as pie.

When the Nation-State of Israel was first created, so was the nation-state of Palestine.

What happened? The entire middle east attacked Isreal repeatedly so they took over land to create a buffer zone..

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Given that Israel gave back the Sinai desert to Egypt years ago, someone please explain how they have any say in what they no longer have even a dubious claim to. Which was the proposal of the Rabbi in a previous thread. And since that won't fly, they now want to get rid of the Palestinians they stole good land from and give them and the worthless Gaza to an Egypt that does not want it.

What a deal for Israel. But maybe they should ask Egypt first before they open their mouths
and close their hearts.

dood you are looney!!
When the Nation-State of Israel was first created, so was the nation-state of Palestine.

What happened? The entire middle east attacked Isreal repeatedly so they took over land to create a buffer zone..

It`s called survival!!

 

[Lemon law]

So Wreckem is the rascal who said--When the Nation-State of Israel was first created, so was the nation-state of Palestine.

No Wreckem that never happened. No such nation state of Palestine was created because Israel was supposed to govern the area set aside in the 1948 UN mandate with equal rights for all within. As it was, the former British mandate was too integrated to have any neat lines of separation so lines on a map were drawn arbitrarily. If you are talking about the 1967 war, that area annexed by conquest cannot legally belong to Israel and a substantial refugee community of Palestinians already pre-existed because Israel did not extend equal rights for their native Palestinians as promised. Getting us back to the so called right to return that still drives this conflict.

Any unbiased student of history understands these basic facts. To say that one side were angels and the other devils only shows bias and revisionist history. Truth be told, there were gross injustices on both sides. Before, after, and during the events leading up to the creation of Israel in 1948. Now here we are, 60 years later, and its impossible to sort out what would be fair other than to say the Palestinians have gotten the short end of the stick. ( And part but not all of it is the fault of the Palestinians. )

The other thing to say is this has been going on for 60 years and will not be settled without some restoration of equality. Failing that, its going to go on and on and on.

 

[MadRat]

The Palestinians are the leftovers of how many centuries of the Great Crusades?

I'm really surprised the West has treated them as bastards for so long. They had more in common with the West than the Arabs in 1948.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
So Wreckem is the rascal who said--When the Nation-State of Israel was first created, so was the nation-state of Palestine.

No Wreckem that never happened. No such nation state of Palestine was created because Israel was supposed to govern the area set aside in the 1948 UN mandate with equal rights for all within. As it was, the former British mandate was too integrated to have any neat lines of separation so lines on a map were drawn arbitrarily. If you are talking about the 1967 war, that area annexed by conquest cannot legally belong to Israel and a substantial refugee community of Palestinians already pre-existed because Israel did not extend equal rights for their native Palestinians as promised. Getting us back to the so called right to return that still drives this conflict.

Any unbiased student of history understands these basic facts. To say that one side were angels and the other devils only shows bias and revisionist history. Truth be told, there were gross injustices on both sides. Before, after, and during the events leading up to the creation of Israel in 1948. Now here we are, 60 years later, and its impossible to sort out what would be fair other than to say the Palestinians have gotten the short end of the stick. ( And part but not all of it is the fault of the Palestinians. )

The other thing to say is this has been going on for 60 years and will not be settled without some restoration of equality. Failing that, its going to go on and on and on.

Israel was supposed to handle their share.

The Arab nations did not want a nation of Palestine, but agreed to govern the Palestinian areas.

Then the day that Israel became a nation, the Arabs attacked. Israel has been on the defensive since then with hostility all around and from either neutral or hostile countries of the world for the next 20+ years. The US did not even attempt to help them until around the '67 war. France was their best supporter up to then. Russia was against them.

The Arab nations still have not taken care of the Palestinians, but treated them as cannon fodder, red-haired step child and proxies for their own frustrations/inadequacies. And the Palestinians have many times abused the hospitality of their hosts.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: MadRat
The Palestinians are the leftovers of how many centuries of the Great Crusades?

I'm really surprised the West has treated them as bastards for so long. They had more in common with the West than the Arabs in 1948.

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I can't per say object with the contents of the Madrat post. But to append the word great to the crusades is like trying to put a fire out with gasoline.

The crusades were hardly a shining moment in European Christianity, maybe with some tiny nobility of purpose amid other corrupt motivations, but totally craven in implementation. And the crusades were a gross insult to Arabs who are still smoldering with resentment.

But as a turning point in history, the crusades defined future events and ambitions as Europeans discovered the trade goods of the far east and decided to cut out the middle men.
Totally unaware that those very arabs sat over oceans of underground oil.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: MadRat
The Palestinians are the leftovers of how many centuries of the Great Crusades?

I'm really surprised the West has treated them as bastards for so long. They had more in common with the West than the Arabs in 1948.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't per say object with the contents of the Madrat post. But to append the word great to the crusades is like trying to put a fire out with gasoline.

The crusades were hardly a shining moment in European Christianity, maybe with some tiny nobility of purpose amid other corrupt motivations, but totally craven in implementation. And the crusades were a gross insult to Arabs who are still smoldering with resentment.

But as a turning point in history, the crusades defined future events and ambitions as Europeans discovered the trade goods of the far east and decided to cut out the middle men.
Totally unaware that those very arabs sat over oceans of underground oil.

At the time, oil was not valuable and probably a PITA

 

[Lemon law]

I mainly agree with the Common Courtesy statement of.

Israel was supposed to handle their share.

The Arab nations did not want a nation of Palestine, but agreed to govern the Palestinian areas.

Then the day that Israel became a nation, the Arabs attacked. Israel has been on the defensive since then with hostility all around and from either neutral or hostile countries of the world for the next 20+ years. The US did not even attempt to help them until around the '67 war. France was their best supporter up to then. Russia was against them.

The Arab nations still have not taken care of the Palestinians, but treated them as cannon fodder, red-haired step child and proxies for their own frustrations/inadequacies. And the Palestinians have many times abused the hospitality of their hosts.
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Correct if we realize we have three basic entities. The indigenous at the time Palestinian population who at least were first class citizens in the land of their birth, the artificially created State of Israel, and the surrounding Arab nations.

The big whoppers are contained in the first and last statements.

(1) Israel did not take care of its Palestinians after the Arabs attacked. As the Arabs attacked and then were forced to retreat with nothing but Arab dead to show for it. So blame the Palestinians is how it came down. And suddenly all Palestinians within Israel, regardless of innocence or guilt were punished for the actions of Arab States.

(2) Meanwhile the Palestinians outside of Israel were suddenly governed by outside Arab States after the British left. With the Arab States treating Palestinians about as well as the British did. It may be understandable that they abused their wondrous hosts hospitality. And then became academic because further Arab meddling partly caused the 1967 war, and exit stage the Arab hosts. And then the Palestinians there became third class citizens in the land of their birth.

So we basically have bad Arabs causing the Palestinians to be punished by unjust Israelis.
Works for the Arabs and Israelis. And we can't see the Palestinians as victims???????

But if they would just shut up an do nothing, they can live in total hopeless squalor with no
hope of anything getting any better. No human being would find that acceptable.