Giants Fan Shoots, Kills Dodger Fan

noproblems

Senior member
Mar 11, 2000
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I was watching "Bowling For Columbine" tonight, and regardless of what an individual's own political ideology might be regarding the obviously pro-gun-control Michael Moore's slant on Columbine, he does ask a fairly significant question. Why are there so many more handgun murders per capita in the United States than in any other country?

Moore carefully and successfully eliminates all of the obvious and sometimes really ignorant misconceptions that people have (i.e., there are more handgun murders because we have more handguns, there are only white people in these other countries such as Canada: NEITHER OF THESE IS TRUE. Then Moore suggests, or rather has some of the subjects of his documentary suggest that our nation has more of a propensity toward violence as a method of problem-solving than other nations do. One of his guests suggests that we oftentimes resort to total destruction of our enemy, while the citizens of other countries are more into negotiation.

Whether you agree with Moore's conclusions and observations regarding the question posed about our rampant problem with handgun violence, or you disagree, will probably hinge on your political leanings and really doesn't matter. The most important thing that Moore's documentary provided was the question itself.

Are we, as a nation, enamored with the instant gratification we can achieve through the sudden finality of a handgun? Does the constitutional right to possess a gun somehow encourage their use for illicit means?
I honestly don't believe there are any believable conclusions or statements that can be made at this point. I certainly don't believe in making our 'society' in general a scapegoat for the actions of the individual. But I do believe that in addition to assessing reponsibility to the action of pulling the trigger, there might be something really wrong in our society that we can try to identify and possibly change.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Giants Fan Shoots, Kills Dodger Fan

America's pastime. I remember when it was baseball. ;)
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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actually i'm pretty certain that moore's assertions about the US vs canada are pretty much completely false

dodger fans suck, btw.
 

noproblems

Senior member
Mar 11, 2000
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Damn El Fenix--
Looky at the dates. looks like we both joined in Mar 2000. How in the Hell did you get 37000 more posts than me?
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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The question of why so many handgun murders is misleading. First of, the US doesn't have significntly higher violent death rate them most other developed nations. It's higher then average, but we are not close to being #1.

Handgun murder rates are high because handguns are conveniant weapons. However it is not true to think that by removing guns it's going to lower the rates. Sure it will lower handgun murder rates, but people will just find the next most convenient way to murder someone.

The violent crime rate is a indication of a sickness in sociaty. Gun control policy is like taking a asprin to fight pneumonia. It may make you feel better in the short term, but it's not going to come close to solving any real problems. At best you may see a temperary drop in violence, at worst you will actually see a rise in crime. This is because the criminals aren't going to care about gun control and will keep the weapons while law-abiding people give their's up. So it just makes a criminal life easier.

I mean what are you going to say to someone attacking you with a gun? "hey that's a illigal weapon! Use that to murder me could automaticly add 3-5 years onto your prison sentence!"

In 1993-4 Estonia, Hungary, Slovenia, Finland, Brazil, Denmark, Austria, Switzerland, France, Mexico, Belgium, and Portugal all had higher violent death rates. The interesting thing that even though Homicide rates are at #4 or #5 for the USA vs other countries our suicide rate is actually quite average. It makes you kinda wonder how the statistics are orginized and who exactly picks and chooses what means of death means what. A guy who died from cut wrists could easiely be either a murder victim or a suicide victim, or knife wounds or posioning or falling in front of a subway or a whole host of terrible ways to die. Because coincidently countries that have very low murder rates have very high suicide rates and countries with high murder rates have very low suicide rates.

So go figure. All those countries have wildly variaring degrees of gun control, from Denmark with very strict gun laws to Switzerland that mandates that pretty much every able body man be trained to use and own a military weapon.

If you realy want to get down to it. Drug use in USA's neighborhoods has a much higher corolation with the murder rate then the amount of guns in circulation.

In fact, places with the highest amount of rates of gun ownership have the lowest rates of murder. (In general)

What would be a much more interesting and usefull statistic would be to find out how much of these rates are a result of criminal on criminal violence... drug deals gone south, gangland shootings etc. etc. vs the amount of deaths from gun-weilding madmen and how that compares to other countries.