Getting slight cold feet on this build.

[VirtualLarry]

Recently purchased:
Ryzen 3 2200G APU (discounted)
Asus B350-E Prime mATX mobo (discounted, Open Box)
Team Vulcan 2x4GB DDR4-3000 (lower priced, not specifically a promo)
and
Adata SX6000 M.2 NVMe PCI-E 3.0 x2 512GB SSD (was nearly $50 off list, or $100, the price of a decent SATA 500GB-class SSD. So I thought grabbing the M.2 NVMe was a no-brainer.)

But now, I'm thinking that the NVMe SSD of that size is overkill, and potential buyers will expect a 2400G APU to go along with those RAM and SSD specs. (I do plan to OC the 2200G to 3.8-3.9Ghz on the core.)

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Most buyers won’t be able to tell or know the difference. There’s no such thing as too much storage space, and your buyers will notice that.

But you’re still forgetting rule number one. Have a buyer before you build a machine.

 

[XavierMace]

If I was building a general cheap surfing PC, I'd go with a different board, a 256Gb SSD, and more RAM.

If I was building this as an entry level gaming PC, I'd go with a different board, and faster RAM. Ideally more of it too.

Historically, it seems that by the time a PC finally leaves your hands, it's rarely in it's original form therefore agonizing over the "build" is kinda moot.

But you’re still forgetting rule number one. Have a buyer before you build a machine.

THIS x INFINITY.

 

[whm1974]

If I was building a general cheap surfing PC, I'd go with a different board, a 256Gb SSD, and more RAM.

If I was building this as an entry level gaming PC, I'd go with a different board, and faster RAM. Ideally more of it too.

Historically, it seems that by the time a PC finally leaves your hands, it's rarely in it's original form therefore agonizing over the "build" is kinda moot.



THIS x INFINITY.

I wouldn't go with an 256GB SSD since that is really not all that much storage and 8GB is enough for general cheap surfing PC. But yes Larry should have a buyer first.

 

[XavierMace]

I wouldn't go with an 256GB SSD since that is really not all that much storage and 8GB is enough for general cheap surfing PC. But yes Larry should have a buyer first.

For a surfing PC that's more than enough fast space and they'd get far more use out of 16Gb of RAM. If the buyer collects music or pictures, a large spindle is a far more cost effective solution than a larger SSD.

 

[whm1974]

For a surfing PC that's more than enough fast space and they'd get far more use out of 16Gb of RAM. If the buyer collects music or pictures, a large spindle is a far more cost effective solution than a larger SSD.

Given what 16GB of memory cost, why would you match it with a low end CPU?

 

[whm1974]

What is your total cost for the parts Larry? What price are you asking for it? The problem with building computers for other people is that most folks who know enough to prefer a DIY build vs an OEM prebuilt, also know to build a system and that is isn't that hard to learn.

Then there is the issue of providing support becoming a huge timesink.

Personally I only would do this for close friends and family, I would also be mindful of most of their issues being the result of user actions instead of the hardware/software you sold to them.

 

[VirtualLarry]

What is your total cost for the parts Larry? What price are you asking for it?

Probably around $400 for parts. On ebay, a PC with those parts goes for ~$700-800.

And I'm not sure why a "browser box" needs 16GB of RAM, TBH. Maybe for gaming, but I, as a buyer, would rather see a 2400G in there, if the box has 16GB and a 512GB NVMe SSD.

I'm not sure why your comment about going with "another board"? Is there something wrong with Asus' B350-E Prime board that I don't know about?

Surely, I wouldn't want an ASRock board, for a Ryzen APU, given their BIOS / UEFI issues.

And X370 / X470 boards don't really come in mATX, except for that oddball Gigabyte board with the "wrong" chipset on board.

 

[whm1974]

Probably around $400 for parts. On ebay, a PC with those parts goes for ~$700-800.

With or without the Operating System? Personally I think that ~$700-800 for that kind of build is a bit much.

 

[killster1]

Looks like a side step from a 2500k cpumark 6400 vs 2200g 7200 which is medium build from 7 or 8 years ago? the graphics is interesting, almost playable with high speed ddr4.

If i was to build for anyone i would use micro wifi atx with display-port 2400g 2x8gb 2tb/120gb ssd. should be able to build for what 400 bux? nice small case with led /aftermarket cooling. but who wants to spend that much on a pc from random guy? maybe sell at flee market so you dont have to provide support?

 

[whm1974]

Looks like a side step from a 2500k cpumark 6400 vs 2200g 7200 which is medium build from 7 or 8 years ago? the graphics is interesting, almost playable with high speed ddr4.

If i was to build for anyone i would use micro wifi atx with display-port 2400g 2x8gb 2tb/120gb ssd. should be able to build for what 400 bux? nice small case with led /aftermarket cooling. but who wants to spend that much on a pc from random guy? maybe sell at flee market so you dont have to provide support?

something like this?
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/QQ8TP3
Note, this is just something I quickly spec out. I probably get a different motherboard , one with DP in any case.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Looks like a side step from a 2500k cpumark 6400 vs 2200g 7200 which is medium build from 7 or 8 years ago? the graphics is interesting, almost playable with high speed ddr4.

CPUMark 7200 versus 6400 is a "sidestep"? LOL.

If i was to build for anyone i would use micro wifi atx with display-port 2400g 2x8gb 2tb/120gb ssd. should be able to build for what 400 bux? nice small case with led /aftermarket cooling. but who wants to spend that much on a pc from random guy? maybe sell at flee market so you dont have to provide support?

2400G $160 on sale
2x8GB DDR4-3000 $160 (budget brand like Team, name-brands like Corsair, GSkill, are like $190)
2TB HDD $65
120GB SSD $35
$420-450 right there, no case, no PSU, no OS, no mouse, no keyboard.

 

[killster1]

CPUMark 7200 versus 6400 is a "sidestep"? LOL.

2400G $160 on sale
2x8GB DDR4-3000 $160 (budget brand like Team, name-brands like Corsair, GSkill, are like $190)
2TB HDD $65
120GB SSD $35
$420-450 right there, no case, no PSU, no OS, no mouse, no keyboard.

yes you think the score lies? its 8 year old pc vs 2018 and still just 800 points better? the 2400G scores over 9000. And can actually play a game. We obviously have diff prices for our parts, im not going to pay new prices with tax. I also would always choose to spend little more and get little better but 500gb ssd in a 8 year old pc would be the same as your build.

 

[XavierMace]

Given what 16GB of memory cost, why would you match it with a low end CPU?

And I'm not sure why a "browser box" needs 16GB of RAM, TBH. Maybe for gaming, but I, as a buyer, would rather see a 2400G in there, if the box has 16GB and a 512GB NVMe SSD.

Go look at any of the dozens of threads on people complaining how much memory Chrome uses and complaining about slowness when they have 100 tabs open. I don't understand having 100 tabs open any more than having your desktop covered in shortcuts, but both are pretty common things for "regular" users to do.

 

[whm1974]

Go look at any of the dozens of threads on people complaining how much memory Chrome uses and complaining about slowness when they have 100 tabs open. I don't understand having 100 tabs open any more than having your desktop covered in shortcuts, but both are pretty common things for "regular" users to do.

How does someone even use 100 open tabs to begin with?

 

[XavierMace]

How does someone even use 100 open tabs to begin with?

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...un-lots-of-chrome-tabs.2551202/#post-39500604

That's just the most recent example, you can find plenty of others. I've seen no shortage of YouTube walkthroughs done by people with 20+ tabs open. I used to think people were joking when they made that kind of comment. Sadly I've learned that's not the case. I've sat and watched a coworker scroll through what must have been 50 tabs trying to find a specific one rather than just re-search for it. I may not understand it, but if I was building a computer for an average user, that would be taken into consideration.

But that's also ignoring the elephant in the room that entry level PC's are a dying business and there's little to no profit in it. I wouldn't be building a PC of this class at all unless there was a VERY specific use case and build in mind. And general web browsing wouldn't be that use case. But Larry's going to be Larry (sorry Larry), so I'm giving my advise on how I'd spec it if it was me.

 

[whm1974]

https://forums.anandtech.com/thread...un-lots-of-chrome-tabs.2551202/#post-39500604

That's just the most recent example, you can find plenty of others. I've seen no shortage of YouTube walkthroughs done by people with 20+ tabs open. I used to think people were joking when they made that kind of comment. Sadly I've learned that's not the case. I've sat and watched a coworker scroll through what must have been 50 tabs trying to find a specific one rather than just re-search for it. I may not understand it, but if I was building a computer for an average user, that would be taken into consideration.

But that's also ignoring the elephant in the room that entry level PC's are a dying business and there's little to no profit in it. I wouldn't be building a PC of this class at all unless there was a VERY specific use case and build in mind. And general web browsing wouldn't be that use case. But Larry's going to be Larry (sorry Larry), so I'm giving my advise on how I'd spec it if it was me.

Yeah I agree with you about building entry level PCs. I'm starting to think that it is only worthwhile to build mid-range class to high end systems. Of course I have some more leeway since I'm a Linux user who ditched Windows a while back. However for those who do need Windows, they will to pay full price for a copy of it. $100 or more depending on which version.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I'm starting to think that it is only worthwhile to build mid-range class to high end systems.

And yet. the Ryzen desktop APU chips are selling like hotcakes, as I understand it. There's got to be a market out there for them.

 

[whm1974]

And yet. the Ryzen desktop APU chips are selling like hotcakes, as I understand it. There's got to be a market out there for them.

Considering that we can build fairly decent systems that have 500GB SSDs using them, I can see why.

 

[XavierMace]

And yet. the Ryzen desktop APU chips are selling like hotcakes, as I understand it.

I haven't seen any data to indicate that. They certainly don't appear to be doing BAD, but in lieu of actual numbers the only other data I see is sorting Newegg by best sellers which puts the 2200G at 11th and 16th which I wouldn't exactly call hotcakes, especially consider their main competitors from blue (i3-8100 and i5-8400) came in at 14th and 7th respectively.

There's got to be a market out there for them.

Larry, you know we love you. But there's that same critical flawed statement you always make. Just because there's a market for that particular part, doesn't mean there's a product for the finished product. You have two main markets for computers. The unwashed masses that just want an appliance they can use to surf the net, check email, and maybe collect cat pictures. Then you have the enthusiasts who like building themselves a performance machine.

You are building appliances. There's nothing wrong with appliance PC's. However, if you were in the market for an appliance which sounds better to you:

An appliance from XavierMace on Craigslist (or word of mouth, or whatever) or a new appliance from a store for the same price?

You can get this from Newegg right now for $400: Acer TC-780-NESelecti5, Intel Core i5 7400 (3.00 GHz), 8 GB DDR4, 256 GB SSD Intel HD Graphics 630, Windows 10 Home. Plus a return policy from a major retailer and a warranty. There's multiple 2200G based complete systems on Newegg right now for under $500. What price were you shooting for on your build? You already said you're at $400 in parts already which wouldn't seem to include case, Windows license, etc.

I'm not sure why your comment about going with "another board"? Is there something wrong with Asus' B350-E Prime board that I don't know about?

There's nothing wrong with it, but there's also nothing "right' with it either. The unwashed masses have no use for an mATX board. They're not going to be putting a bunch of expansion cards in it. $15 more gets you a good open box ITX board with solid onboard wifi. Unwashed masses like wifi, they don't run cables all over their house. I also don't like the lack of a DisplayPort connector and the VGA/DVI connectors are a waste of space.

 

[whm1974]

Larry, you know we love you. But there's that same critical flawed statement you always make. Just because there's a market for that particular part, doesn't mean there's a product for the finished product. You have two main markets for computers. The unwashed masses that just want an appliance they can use to surf the net, check email, and maybe collect cat pictures. Then you have the enthusiasts who like building themselves a performance machine.

You are building appliances. There's nothing wrong with appliance PC's. However, if you were in the market for an appliance which sounds better to you:

An appliance from XavierMace on Craigslist (or word of mouth, or whatever) or a new appliance from a store for the same price?

You can get this from Newegg right now for $400: Acer TC-780-NESelecti5, Intel Core i5 7400 (3.00 GHz), 8 GB DDR4, 256 GB SSD Intel HD Graphics 630, Windows 10 Home. Plus a return policy from a major retailer and a warranty. There's multiple 2200G based complete systems on Newegg right now for under $500. What price were you shooting for on your build? You already said you're at $400 in parts already which wouldn't seem to include case, Windows license, etc.

The last points out the problem with building computers for other people. In particular low end or "appliance" PCs since once the builder adds the cost of Windows, decent quality parts, and labor, the system will cost more then what the buyer could buy a per-built for, and that is not including the keyboard and mouse with the custom rig.

I prefer building my own because I enjoy doing so and because I want to ensure a certain level of quality. Since I am a Linux user, that also plays a major part in that as well.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Larry, you know we love you. But there's that same critical flawed statement you always make. Just because there's a market for that particular part, doesn't mean there's a product for the finished product. You have two main markets for computers. The unwashed masses that just want an appliance they can use to surf the net, check email, and maybe collect cat pictures. Then you have the enthusiasts who like building themselves a performance machine.

You are building appliances. There's nothing wrong with appliance PC's. However, if you were in the market for an appliance which sounds better to you:

An appliance from XavierMace on Craigslist (or word of mouth, or whatever) or a new appliance from a store for the same price?

You can get this from Newegg right now for $400: Acer TC-780-NESelecti5, Intel Core i5 7400 (3.00 GHz), 8 GB DDR4, 256 GB SSD Intel HD Graphics 630, Windows 10 Home. Plus a return policy from a major retailer and a warranty. There's multiple 2200G based complete systems on Newegg right now for under $500. What price were you shooting for on your build? You already said you're at $400 in parts already which wouldn't seem to include case, Windows license, etc.

Well, if there isn't a market for the "finished product" containing an APU, then why are the APU selling? Big demand for avant-gaurde keychains at the fair?

And, if anyone has half a clue, they would PREFER a Ryzen APU rig, to an Intel i5-7400 rig. At the very least, one can game, one virtually cannot. For an additional $100 on the price, many would choose the Ryzen, if they knew that.

I guess I don't quite share your pessimistic view regarding custom-built PCs. I bought a pre-built gaming rig last Dec. from Walmart. i5-7400, 2x4GB DDR4, 1TB HDD, Win10, GTX 1060 3GB. All for $500 + tax OTD. Not a bad deal, I couldn't have built one (including Windows 10) for that price. Now the new ones are going for $700+ on ebay.

But Lord help you if you want to upgrade. Thankfully, the chassis and mobo, have room for an additional drive, but other than that, you're basically screwed if you want to expand or upgrade the PC in any way.

Some people, that have had pre-builts in the past realize this. Most people don't. And you emphasizing the cost proposition to new owners, and neglecting the fact that you basically have to discard the whole PC if you want to upgrade much of it, rather than with a custom PC (especially with AM4) upgrading what you like, is a bit disingenious.

Edit: And that's kind of my point, with a Ryzen APU inside a custom-built PC, it's a lot more than just an "appliance" to surf the web, it's a "gaming PC" (for suitably lower-res forms of gaming), as well as a "media PC", a "4K HTPC", etc.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The unwashed masses that just want an appliance they can use to surf the net, check email, and maybe collect cat pictures. Then you have the enthusiasts who like building themselves a performance machine.

That's the other thing. With a pre-built "appliance PC", especially those not in a normal tower case with a standards-compliant ATX PSU, you can't go from one to the other.

With a custom-built AM4 PC, you CAN go from "appliance PC" and "low-end gamer" (APU rig), to a "performance machine", dropping in a 2600X or something similar, and getting a dGPU, possibly not even having to upgrade the PSU, if a decent one was initially provided (as I generally do).

I mean, you make that argument that I cannot compete on price with an i5-7400 pre-built "appliance PC". I make the opposite argument - that "appliance PC", cannot compete IN VALUE, with an upgradable AM4 custom PC. I realize, that the target market of people that actually UNDERSTAND this, and are not enthusiasts / builders themselves, is probably pretty slim. But I'm thinking, friends and families of enthusiasts, and customers "willing to trust me", about the longer-term viability and upgradability of these custom Ryzen APU PCs I'm building.

Edit: And thanks for the vote of support. I love all you people too. And I do value your opinions.

Edit: I guess, I'm not saying that you're "wrong", only, that you're focusing on cost, rather than value, which may or may not be the primary consideration for customers looking for a lower-cost "appliance PC", but I would hope that customers looking specifically for a Ryzen APU PC, to be looking for "something more" than just an appliance, with some knowledge of what an APU can do for them, that an ordinary CPU isn't quite capable of.

 

[whm1974]

Larry, while I agree with you about the benefits of building your own PC, I'm also well aware that the average user of PCs as "appliances" don't actually usually upgrade said "appliances", instead most of the time they just get new ones.

 

[XavierMace]

@VirtualLarry, here in lies the problem. You're applying an enthusiast mindset to your sales pitch. I'm not saying the logic is flawed, I'm saying it doesn't matter if it's logical. The general public doesn't care if it's upgrade-able as they're never going to upgrade it. Buying a pickup truck is not a remotely logical choice for the majority of the population. But look at truck sales numbers.

Once upon a time I worked at Fry's Electronics in their computer repair/service department for several years. We don't have Microcenters out here and BestBuy is a laughable alternative for components. Meaning if you wanted computer parts, you went to Fry's. You want to guess how many upgrades we did a week that weren't memory or hard drives to say nothing of complete custom builds?

As you admit, the target market for enthusiasts shopping for entry level systems that can't/don't want to build it themselves is exceedingly small. I also picked that i5 rig because it was simply the first thing I saw.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883102400&cm_re=2200g-_-83-102-400-_-Product

Rosewill case, Asrock motherboard. That throws your non-upgradeable argument out the window. There's a reason most people got out of the PC tech business.