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Germany may prosecute Jew for performing Brit Milah (circumcision)

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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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...but has no problem with innocent babies being mutilated because of religious superstitions.
You still spouting this lie? Tsk tsk, why do you lie so vehemently? Even the American Academy of Pediatrics does not consider it child abuse - but obviously YOU know more about children than the American Academy of Pediatrics. You should go explain their error to them...


Still laughing that you consider ear piercing to be child abuse. :D I will grant you this much, you are consistant with your idiotic view.
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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Conservatives believe it's the job of parents to make decisions for their children. As long as those decisions don't unduly constrict the child's ability to live a productive and happy life, we're content. It's once our children are adults that we object to their choices being constrained. And we'll just have to agree to disagree about the necessity of a foreskin in leading a productive and happy life.
I guess that's pretty much the bottom line. You and others like you believe that this is sufficiently benign that it should be a parent's judgment call, and I do not. I appreciate that you (eventually) made a reasonable case for your position, unlike certain other people.

:D Only you and other idiots like you feel it is child abuse.
Still can't come up with a rational argument for how inflicting pain on a helpless newborn for no medical reason is anything but abuse.

But you're very good with the ad hominems, so there is that. Too bad that doesn't actually win you any arguments.

Hint: Truth is not subject to public opinion polls, nor is it declared by authorities. Performing a surgical procedure on an infant for no valid reason is abuse.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Still can't come up with a rational argument for how inflicting pain on a helpless newborn for no medical reason is anything but abuse.
I do not need to, YOU need to support YOUR claim it IS abuse. I have the AAP on my side - they do not consider it abuse. You have...well, you have your own personal view which does not match that of the children's medical specialists.

Your view is akin to you saying water is not wet then demanding that the people who say that water is, in fact wet, need to support themselves. It does not work that way.

Still chucking over you saying ear piercing is child abuse.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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A statement of reaffirmation for this policy was published on 116 (3): 796.
  • AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Circumcision Policy Statement

Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In circumstances in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. If a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided.


Parents and physicians each have an ethical duty to the child to attempt to secure the child's best interest and well-being.119 However, it is often uncertain as to what is in the best interest of any individual patient. In cases such as the decision to perform a circumcision in the neonatal period when there are potential benefits and risks and the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, it should be the parents who determine what is in the best interest of the child. In the pluralistic society of the United States in which parents are afforded wide authority for determining what constitutes appropriate child-rearing and child welfare, it is legitimate for the parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions, in addition to medical factors, when making this choice.119
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/103/3/686.full

It is not child abuse, nor mutilation. If it was, the AAP would NOT say it is fine to do it (bolding at the end is my addition).
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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I do not need to, YOU need to support YOUR claim it IS abuse.
I already have.

The real "water is wet" argument is mine: sticking a sharp object through a helpless infant's ears for no medical reason is self-evidently abusive. A very mild form, but obvious all the same.

And no, I don't care that it is socially acceptable to a lot of people right now. I don't really care that the AAP refuses to condemn it because of political correctness, either. A few decades ago, smoking around babies and young children was routine, as was driving with them bouncing around in the back seat, or whacking them across the head if you got angry with them. It takes time for some people to wake up and see the obvious. (Some more than others.)

Of course, lopping off part of a helpless baby's penis without anesthesia for no valid reason is substantively worse than ear piercing.
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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1. I don't care that the AAP doesn't consider chopping off part of the penis abuse. They are simply being politically correct; see above.

2. The AAP does not recommend routine circumcision, as you yourself have just quoted.

3. The AAP justifies circumcision as an option based on certain medical indications that are not taken into account when this procedure is done mindlessly for religious reasons.

4. The AAP specifies that if circumcision is performed, it should be done with analgesia; Jewish ritual circumcision is not, making it especially unethical.
 

leper84

Senior member
Dec 29, 2011
989
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Good, time to stop the genital mutilation of children by religious extremists of all stripes.

And for those defending having their dicks already mutilated. Guess what, it IS smaller. Thickness is where it counts if you are going to get into the biological aspect of pleasuring a women. (or man)

Also circumcised men do not last as long in bed.

But then the USA is a society that has a bunch of stunted manchildren literally frightened of real womens sexuality.

So it matters not I guess. Well except for those of us getting laid. And of course the women who know their orgasms/bodies. ;)
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
772
126
All i got to say is that i'm glad my parents didn't perform circumcision. It's really a barbaric practice. Babies don't have a say in the matter.

And LOLOLOL at the retarded OP's suggestion that Germany is trying to destroy Judaism. If anything, it's the other way around, they're ultra sensitive about their past and ultra right groups like neo-nazis are banned.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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And LOLOLOL at the retarded OP's suggestion that Germany is trying to destroy Judaism. If anything, it's the other way around, they're ultra sensitive about their past and ultra right groups like neo-nazis are banned.
It's especially ironic given that the OP is a member of a sect that most Jews don't recognize as Jewish, and which arguably constitutes a greater threat to the Jewish religion than any law against circumcision.
 
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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,995
772
126
It's especially ironic given that the OP is a member of a sect that most Jews don't recognize as Jewish, and which arguably constitutes a greater threat to the Jewish religion than any law against circumcision.
I didn't know that, which sect does he belong to?
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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I didn't know that, which sect does he belong to?
He's a "Messianic Jew", which is basically a Christian who follows Jewish customs. The modern sect is based on the Jews for Jesus, a group started by Christian missionaries with the specific intention of muddying the waters between Judaism and Christianity, to make it easier to convert Jews to Christianity while convincing them that they could continue to be Jews as they were before.

I've known about these people for decades. I've read the literature, had them try to convert me, etc. They are generally detested by most Jews (aka, ones who aren't actually Christian.) I can remember attending conferences in college specifically intended to educate young Jews on how to avoid them.

I didn't know he was one either until he finally admitted it a couple of days ago. For months the guy has been running around just saying he was "Jewish" without mentioning the small detail that he's actually Christian. This is by design -- the entire movement is inherently based on deception. And cybrsage's own behavior, well, let's just say it's consistent.
 
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Sigh...CK loves to "pretend" he does not know things, but we all can plainly see it is a poorly crafted lie.

Jewishness is both a religion AND an ethnicity. An atheist Jew is still a Jew even if he does not follow the Jewish religion. One is BORN into an ethnicity - there is nothing a person can do about that, it just is what it is whether you like it or not.

I know CK knows this, but for some reason he "pretends" he does not. No matter how many times he is told, he "forgets" he was told and "pretends" a person born an ethnic Jew is not a Jews.

Next, I expect CK will say Native American Indians who do not worship the spirits as their ancestors did are not Native AMerican Indians...since his logic demands it. Yeah, stupid, but that is what CK is doing.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
I didn't know he was one either until he finally admitted it a couple of days ago. For months the guy has been running around just saying he was "Jewish" without mentioning the small detail that he's actually Christian. This is by design -- the entire movement is inherently based on deception. And cybrsage's own behavior, well, let's just say it's consistent.
I have never hidden my belief that Y'shua is the Meshiach. Pray tell, what do you think Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Timothy, etc. where? They were abviously Jews AND they believed Jesus is the Messiah. You know what that makes them?

Wait for it...wait for it...

Messianic Jews! Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah! TADA! Paul was also VERY clear that he did not stop keeping The Law, going as far as to offer sacrifices at the Temple.

Ignorance, while your normal state, is not something you should continue to embrace.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
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1. I don't care that the AAP doesn't consider chopping off part of the penis abuse. They are simply being politically correct; see above.

2. The AAP does not recommend routine circumcision, as you yourself have just quoted.

3. The AAP justifies circumcision as an option based on certain medical indications that are not taken into account when this procedure is done mindlessly for religious reasons.

4. The AAP specifies that if circumcision is performed, it should be done with analgesia; Jewish ritual circumcision is not, making it especially unethical.
:D Yeah, YOU know more about what constitutes child abuse than the organization whose purpose is to worry about the health of children. :D

You really need to shed your desire to remain in ignorance.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
Pray tell, what do you think Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Timothy, etc. where? They were abviously Jews AND they believed Jesus is the Messiah. You know what that makes them?
Christians.

Someone can be of Jewish extraction, and consider themselves culturally Jewish. But in terms of religion, if you believe in the divinity of Jesus, you are a Christian.

Most of these "messianic Jews" are not ethnically Jewish anyway. They simply adopt Jewish customs as part of their deliberate effort to try to blur the lines between Judaism and Christianity.
 

alzan

Diamond Member
May 21, 2003
3,860
2
0
Good, time to stop the genital mutilation of children by religious extremists of all stripes.

And for those defending having their dicks already mutilated. Guess what, it IS smaller. Thickness is where it counts if you are going to get into the biological aspect of pleasuring a women. (or man)

Also circumcised men do not last as long in bed.

But then the USA is a society that has a bunch of stunted manchildren literally frightened of real womens sexuality.

So it matters not I guess. Well except for those of us getting laid. And of course the women who know their orgasms/bodies. ;)
Proof?
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Christians.
The term Christian did not exist for many years after the death of Jesus. The were called "Jewish Followers of the Way" during that time.

Someone can be of Jewish extraction, and consider themselves culturally Jewish. But in terms of religion, if you believe in the divinity of Jesus, you are a Christian.

Most of these "messianic Jews" are not ethnically Jewish anyway. They simply adopt Jewish customs as part of their deliberate effort to try to blur the lines between Judaism and Christianity.
Jewish Extraction? By extraction, do you mean ethnicity? Are you finally admitting someone can be both Jewish AND a follower of Jesus at the same time, that you have been wrong every time you said it is not possible?
 
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cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
But that means the AAP is not listening to CK when he demands they say circumcision is child abuse! OH NO!
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
A 20-year decline in male circumcision has cost the country $2 billion in medical costs that could have been prevented, Johns Hopkins researchers say in a study released Monday.
In what is believed to be the first look at the economic impact of male circumcision on the health care system, the Hopkins scientists say that boys who are not circumcised are more prone to sexually transmitted diseases and other health problems over a lifetime that are costly to treat.
http://vitals.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/27/13460930-circumcision-benefits-outweigh-risks-but-parents-should-choose-pediatricians-say?lite
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
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Circumcision benefits outweigh risks, but parents should choose, pediatricians say
There's really nothing new here. If you read the article, they still say they do not recommend it as a routine procedure, as was quoted earlier in the thread.

I actually don't have a problem with intelligent parents weighing the pros and cons medically and deciding that they prefer circumcision. My issue is with, as the AAP says, routine circumcision, or this being done based on religious superstition.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
0
0
The term Christian did not exist for many years after the death of Jesus. The were called "Jewish Followers of the Way" during that time.
Yes, so? The term has been used for many hundreds of years since then.

Believe in Jesus is the defining difference between Jews and Christians. You'll be hard-pressed to find any real religious Jews who consider you Jewish, unless you already were by birth. You couldn't be admitted to Israel under the Law of Return without that history, either.

Are you finally admitting someone can be both Jewish AND a follower of Jesus at the same time, that you have been wrong every time you said it is not possible?
I never said it wasn't possible. One can certainly be Jewish based on birth and not be Jewish based on religion. In fact, I arguably fall into that category myself.

The difference is that I am honest and up front about what I am. I don't try to conflate the cultural and religious aspects. When people ask me about religion, I answer that I'm culturally Jewish but atheistic in terms of belief.

This is not how people like you function. I've been here since May and last week was the first time I saw you mention actually being a Christian, despite being involved in numerous discussions about Judaism. You, like the sect you belong to, deliberately obfuscate these issues.

Just as you get all worked up over "attacks on Judaism" that are based on religious, not cultural, issues, even though from a religious standpoint, you are not Jewish. You even have the audacity to lecture other people here about Judaism.

I also seriously doubt that you actually are ethnically Jewish. Most "messianic" Jews are not. And you are one of the most dishonest people I've ever encountered on the Internet.
 
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