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Germany may prosecute Jew for performing Brit Milah (circumcision)

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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An unnamed doctor in Germany has filed charges against a rabbi for performing ritual circumcisions on infant boys, a prosecutor said on Wednesday, two months after a court in Cologne angered Jews and Muslims by banning the practice.
In a move likely to compound Jewish leaders' fears that the Jewish way of life in Germany is under threat, a doctor in the German state of Hesse filed a charge against David Goldberg, a Jewish spiritual leader in the Bavarian town of Hof.
The office of Gerhard Schmitt, the local chief public prosecutor, will review the charges and decide whether to open a case against the rabbi. Schmitt said it was too early to say whether the case had merit or not.
"Charges have been filed but no investigation is yet underway," Schmitt said, refusing to reveal who filed the charges, citing standard legal practice. "It really has to be examined in detail - this is a very, very complex issue."
The complaint comes after judges in the western city of Cologne banned the practice on June 26, triggering a fiery public debate and a parliamentary resolution calling for a law formally legalizing religious circumcision to be approved.
"This criminal complaint is an attack not only on one rabbi but against the entire Jewish people," Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, two officials with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a Jewish human rights group, said in a statement.
German politicians have overwhelmingly condemned the earlier court ruling, underscoring sensitivity about any suggestion of intolerance in a country still haunted by its Nazi past.
"We cannot put Germany's reputation as a land of religious tolerance at risk," Germany's Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said on Wednesday while travelling in Lichtenstein. "Jewish and Muslim traditions must not be restricted by legal uncertainties."
If passed, a new law would overrule the decision of the Cologne court and legalize religious circumcision.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/22/us-germany-circumcision-idUSBRE87L0XO20120822?feedType=RSS

Oh Germany, are you never going to stop trying to destroy Judaism?
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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Because of political correctness there's no way that Germany will actually outlaw circumcision (as much as I wish they would.)
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
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It is a local bigot that is complaining backed by a local judge; not Germany

Article also indicates that Germany is planning on implementing a new law that ensures such practices are allowed per religious tradition.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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I hope they do create the law...but it has been almost two months since the previous ruling and nothing has been done to protect religion in Germany. Judges rule on the law - so a local judge is very important, given that he is the only judge to rule on the issue so far. Precident has now been set, as shown by the legal complaint filed two months after the judge's ruling.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Maybe the Jewish community should fret a little more about the horrendous things that the ultra-orthodox do to their kids and then cover up:
Ah, so you are one of those who say "someone did something bad so we should outlaw their religious practices"...nice. Why do you want to ban Judaism? Your other post says you wish they would ban it.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
6
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Precident has now been set, as shown by the legal complaint filed two months after the judge's ruling.
Germany has a civil law legal system that does not use the principle of precedent. That's a common law concept.

Don't worry, your barbaric and archaic tradition will be clearly protected soon enough.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Don't worry, your barbaric and archaic tradition will be clearly protected soon enough.
I certainly hope so, for if bigots like you ever gain power they will ban religion like you wish to do.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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Because of political correctness there's no way that Germany will actually outlaw circumcision (as much as I wish they would.)
This is probably true. Despite the (typically) dishonest claim by the OP that Germany is trying to destroy Judaism, the country has bent over backwards to try to make amends since the ends of WW2, and it's highly unlikely that the current challenge to circumcision will be allowed to stand.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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I certainly hope so, for if bigots like you ever gain power they will ban religion like you wish to do.
It's not bigotry to point out that a custom that involves mutilating the genitals of a helpless infant is a barbaric and archaic tradition. It is.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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I certainly hope so, for if bigots like you ever gain power they will ban religion like you wish to do.
If it were up to me people would certainly still be able to choose to get circumcised once their adults if that's what their religion requires. I have no love for the idea of forcing such an idiotic ritual on kids who have no choice, but I'm also enough of a realist to know that a ban on infant circumcision will never happen.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
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Banning the Brit Milah is a direct attack on Judaism. It is akin to banning Catholics from partaking in first communion.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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81
This is probably true. Despite the (typically) dishonest claim by the OP that Germany is trying to destroy Judaism, the country has bent over backwards to try to make amends since the ends of WW2, and it's highly unlikely that the current challenge to circumcision will be allowed to stand.
I'd love to see Switzerland attempt to ban the custom since they already ban Kosher/Halal ritual slaughter and aren't as infested with political correctness as the rest of Europe. It still probably won't happen but I can dream...
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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It's not bigotry to point out that a custom that involves mutilating the genitals of a helpless infant is a barbaric and archaic tradition. It is.
Nope, but you are allowed to be horribly wrong. It is one of your freedoms in a western nation.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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Banning the Brit Milah is a direct attack on Judaism. It is akin to banning Catholics from partaking in first communion.
Idiotic analogy. First communion doesn't involve cutting a part of a kid's body off.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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If it were up to me people would certainly still be able to choose to get circumcised once their adults if that's what their religion requires. I have no love for the idea of forcing such an idiotic ritual on kids who have no choice, but I'm also enough of a realist to know that a ban on infant circumcision will never happen.
The religion requires it at day 8 of life, not adulthood. At least you are smart enough to realize your desire to ban religion will never happen.


I'd love to see Switzerland attempt to ban the custom since they already ban Kosher/Halal ritual slaughter and aren't as infested with political correctness as the rest of Europe. It still probably won't happen but I can dream...
You have some pretty horrific dreams.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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Idiotic analogy. First communion doesn't involve cutting a part of a kid's body off.
Requirements of a major world religion are requirements of a major world religion. Your hatred for one of them does not invalidate this truth.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
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"Oh Germany, are you never going to stop trying to destroy Judaism?'

Gets my vote for today's must ludicrous comment.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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The religion requires it at day 8 of life, not adulthood.
That doesn't justify something that is ethically wrong.

At least you are smart enough to realize your desire to ban religion will never happen.
Banning infant mutilation doesn't mean banning Judaism. It just means Jews will be forced to evolve, just as a good chunk of the Torah deals with slaughtering and burning animals, and nobody does that any more.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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Requirements of a major world religion are requirements of a major world religion. Your hatred for one of them does not invalidate this truth.
Forcibly converting infidels appears to be a requirement of Islam, that doesn't mean that we let them do it.
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
6
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Why do you want to ban Judaism?
Actually I care far more about making Europe less appealing to Muslim immigrants (the original court case had to do with them, not with Jews.)

Oh well, this is no longer worth arguing about. Despite your endless whining about persecution there is no real danger that circumcision will be banned in Germany and I have better things to do than fret and argue about something that will not change.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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Forcibly converting infidels appears to be a requirement of Islam, that doesn't mean that we let them do it.
Yep.

Cybrsage's arguments are, as usual, intellectually dishonest. He can't defend the inherently unethical requirement to perform unnecessary surgery without consent on an infant, so he tries to distort the argument into an "attack on his religion".

Reasonable people can see that it is not any such thing. Nobody wants to destroy the religion -- they want the religion to stop mutilating infants. It's as simple as that.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,893
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Idiotic analogy. First communion doesn't involve cutting a part of a kid's body off.
Oh come off it. It's not like it's female circumcision. The child will still be fully capable of a happy, healthy, enjoyable sex life. If you're somehow worried about pain, you can request or require that the mohel use an analgesic.

There's not much real medical need for circumcision, but that doesn't mean there's any reason to ban the practice, either.
 

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