Germany is kicking our ass. When will Americans learn?

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
1) From Thomas Friedman's latest book, Hot, Flat, and Crowded:

Page 20:

If all Americans could compare Berlin's luxurious central train station today with the grimy, overcrowded Penn Station in New York City, they would swear we were the ones who lost World War II.

2) How about "Green" coming from the top, down? What about the government setting a god-damn example? What about the USA committing to make the White House and Capitol buildings completely sustainable?

The German Reichstag is expected to become the greenest parliament building in the world, thanks to a decision to rely solely on renewable energy.

At the moment biofuel generators in the basement produce 40% of the building's energy, for lighting, heating, the flow of air conditioning and water, while the rest comes mainly from coal and nuclear supplies.

But in future the Reichstag, which has been the home of Germany's parliament for nine years, will go a step further, entirely abandoning conventional sources in favour of renewables, which will be provided by an outside supplier.

The greening of the Reichstag fits in with a growing trend in zero-emission homes in Germany, with some homes so energy-efficient that they even produce power. The owners are allowed to sell their surplus back to the grid for generous returns.


Source

3) Green = $$$.

Deutsche Bank is in the process of renovating their "twin towers" HQ in Frankfurt/Main. I said renovate. Not tear down and start new.

Just what sort of renovations?

By makings its Frankfurt headquarters "green," Deutsche Bank will soon serve as a model of energy conservation for corporations throughout the world.

The redesign of the 509-foot-tall twin towers is being spearheaded by the renowned architect Mario Bellini, who was selected through and international competition.

As part of the biggest building modernization project in Europe, the towers will be stripped to their cores and virtually all material used in the effort, including steel, rubble, scrap lumber, and even excess insulation materials, will be recycled.

The following changes will take place:

Ceilings will be raised and new light sensors will be installed to make optimal use of daylight.

Water supplies will be supplemented through rainwater, conserved through the use of more efficient flush fixtures, and heated with solar thermal panes.

The concrete structure of the building will be harnessed to store thermal energy.

The new facade will reduce heat loss in the winter and heat entry in the summer; reduced airflow and district heating will also lessen energy consumption.

New operable windows combined with radiant cooling will noticeably improve air conditioning efficiency.

The ultimate result of this green redesign will be a 67 percent reduction in the use of heating energy, a 55 percent reduction in the use of power, a 43 percent drop in water consumption, and a 55 percent decline in carbon dioxide emissions.

[For those who don't know, reductions in heating, power, and water usage translates to cost savings.]

"Our goal of this project is to make 'eco-efficiency' part of our DNA so that all future buildouts and retrofits make optimal use of water, energy, and other resources," said Jeff Baer, global head of Sourcing and Corporate Real Estate, adding that Deutsche Bank is applying similar techniques in its new Hong Kong headquarters in Kowloon and its new back office site in Nirlon.

"These actions are a 'triple play' for the Bank in that they save costs, drive increased staff productivity, and positively reduce our impact on the global environment," Baer said.


------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, living here in DC, where building go up all around my office, I see no recycling. I see nothing terribly innovative or stylish as I am sure the new DB "Greentowers" will be. I freeze in the summer as the AC is needless left on 24/7. I long to be able to open my own office windows from time to time.

When will this country wake up? When will we all wake up? When will we learn to ignore our shortsighted greed for tomorrow and instead free ourselves from the bondage of fossil fuels by learning to live (even better) without them in the long term? That, in the long run, green is more profitable than not? (Don't let me get started about the bondage of personal, local, state, and federal debt. We need to learn to get rid of that too.)

So, when will we learn?

When will we learn to LEAD the way once again?

Most Americans don't know it yet, but the train of the modern, industrialized world is leaving the station...with the USA left behind with the "duh" expression on its face.

Let's hope Obama can at least run and catch up with the train and hop on before it rounds the mountain.


 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
No argument, the US is no leader in renewable energy, but despite holding an EU passport, I'd much rather stay in the US on a green card. I think the place is crowded, expensive, and has various issues of its own, though I would like to visit it (I've not).
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: JS80
wow that post is full of fail

Care to be specific?

The ultimate result of this green redesign will be a 67 percent reduction in the use of heating energy, a 55 percent reduction in the use of power, a 43 percent drop in water consumption, and a 55 percent decline in carbon dioxide emissions.

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: JS80
wow that post is full of fail

Care to be specific?

The ultimate result of this green redesign will be a 67 percent reduction in the use of heating energy, a 55 percent reduction in the use of power, a 43 percent drop in water consumption, and a 55 percent decline in carbon dioxide emissions.

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

I would argue that is impossible to measure the positive effects of "going green" with simple Dollar amounts.

That is part of our problem.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: JS80
wow that post is full of fail

Care to be specific?

The ultimate result of this green redesign will be a 67 percent reduction in the use of heating energy, a 55 percent reduction in the use of power, a 43 percent drop in water consumption, and a 55 percent decline in carbon dioxide emissions.

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

I would argue that is impossible to measure the positive effects of "going green" with simple Dollar amounts.

That is part of our problem.

You don't think that retrofitting a building actually wastes energy?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
The Reichstag was more or less completely rebuilt. I don't see that happening to the Capitol or the WH unless they are bombed out...

As far as banks, BFD. Goldman was beating the snot out of DB years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_Tower

How many bank buildings aren't being redone. Was DB's building being redone JUST for green, or a general remodel that was incorporating green?

I really have to say "so what" over that whole post. Cherry picking buildings being remodeled right now, or those being rebuilt, then comparing them to projects that don't need to be undertaken, or might be in the future.

 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,056
44,997
136
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

Yea, retrofits are horrifically expensive for the return you get. I can only imagine the cost to do such a thing to the US Capital or White House for what would be a purely symbolic gesture.

Many cities and states are encouraging developers to build new structures that will qualify for LEED certification.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

If you are recylcing many existing building materials, does that then translate to paying less in terms of buying everything new?
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

Yea, retrofits are horrifically expensive for the return you get. I can only imagine the cost to do such a thing to the US Capital or White House for what would be a purely symbolic gesture.

Many cities and states are encouraging developers to build new structures that will qualify for LEED certification.

I'm in grad school for civil engineering and some of my friends from the undergrad years work for firms that do retrofitting with the state of CA. The first thing my friend said was "I don't know if it's a good idea". Fvcking CA liberal democratic retards who know nothing about economics and science but only know how to waste money and spread the wealth.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

If you are recylcing many existing building materials, does that then translate to paying less in terms of buying everything new?

Define "recylcing many existing building materials." Generally recycled goods cost more and take more energy than just getting new shit.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The Reichstag was more or less completely rebuilt. I don't see that happening to the Capitol or the WH unless they are bombed out...

As far as banks, BFD. Goldman was beating the snot out of DB years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_Tower

How many bank buildings aren't being redone. Was DB's building being redone JUST for green, or a general remodel that was incorporating green?

I really have to say "so what" over that whole post. Cherry picking buildings being remodeled right now, or those being rebuilt, then comparing them to projects that don't need to be undertaken, or might be in the future.

The building was in need of either being torn down and replaced or retrofitted. They choose the latter but one of the two was going to take place.

As for GS > DB, the main words in your sentence are "was...years ago." BFD! I think DB may have been wiser when it came to investing in subprimes than GS. But I could be wrong.
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

If you are recylcing many existing building materials, does that then translate to paying less in terms of buying everything new?

Recycling takes energy too.

Look, I'm not trying to argue that we need to go green. I'm just saying that sometimes it might not be the best allocation of resources/funds. I won't be convinced until you show me a rundown on the actual costs and energy expenditures. A lot of these projects are feel good crap made by decision makers who don't know sh!t about science and engineering.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

Yea, retrofits are horrifically expensive for the return you get. I can only imagine the cost to do such a thing to the US Capital or White House for what would be a purely symbolic leadership.

Many cities and states are encouraging developers to build new structures that will qualify for LEED certification.

Fixed.

Leadership is what Americans...and the world want I think.

 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The Reichstag was more or less completely rebuilt. I don't see that happening to the Capitol or the WH unless they are bombed out...

As far as banks, BFD. Goldman was beating the snot out of DB years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_Tower

How many bank buildings aren't being redone. Was DB's building being redone JUST for green, or a general remodel that was incorporating green?

I really have to say "so what" over that whole post. Cherry picking buildings being remodeled right now, or those being rebuilt, then comparing them to projects that don't need to be undertaken, or might be in the future.

The building was in need of either being torn down and replaced or retrofitted. They choose the latter but one of the two was going to take place.

As for GS > DB, the main words in your sentence are "was...years ago." BFD! I think DB may have been wiser when it came to investing in subprimes than GS. But I could be wrong.

Didn't DB get bailed out too (by the German government)? I know a few banks in Germany (Bayern LB and IKB) got bailed out. Oh and that hypo bank also got bailed out.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

Yea, retrofits are horrifically expensive for the return you get. I can only imagine the cost to do such a thing to the US Capital or White House for what would be a purely symbolic leadership.

Many cities and states are encouraging developers to build new structures that will qualify for LEED certification.

Fixed.

Leadership is what Americans...and the world want I think.

The country is in the position it is in right now because it was doing shit that was unsustainable and didn't make financial sense. How is paying ungodly sums of money for the sake of going green good leadership?
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,837
4,937
136
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

If you are recylcing many existing building materials, does that then translate to paying less in terms of buying everything new?

Define "recylcing many existing building materials." Generally recycled goods cost more and take more energy than just getting new shit.

If by "generally" you mean "almost never."
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The Reichstag was more or less completely rebuilt. I don't see that happening to the Capitol or the WH unless they are bombed out...

As far as banks, BFD. Goldman was beating the snot out of DB years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs_Tower

How many bank buildings aren't being redone. Was DB's building being redone JUST for green, or a general remodel that was incorporating green?

I really have to say "so what" over that whole post. Cherry picking buildings being remodeled right now, or those being rebuilt, then comparing them to projects that don't need to be undertaken, or might be in the future.

The building was in need of either being torn down and replaced or retrofitted. They choose the latter but one of the two was going to take place.

As for GS > DB, the main words in your sentence are "was...years ago." BFD! I think DB may have been wiser when it came to investing in subprimes than GS. But I could be wrong.

Then who the fuck cares? If you NEED to replace or refurbish, then do it, you might as well go green.

So, now you're so pathetically looking for an excuse you need to prop up your argument with subprime? Come on man.

http://www.straightstocks.com/...s-and-finacial-losses/
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Originally posted by: JS80

what's the capex cost? what's the payback period? what's the ROI?

Unless what you meant by "Green = $$$" is Green = will cost you a shit ton of money.

not to mention you 0/10 rant too

Thank you! It makes sense to build new buildings green of course, but I'm not sure that retrofitting old ones is the way to go green. Most people don't understand this (besides economists and engineers?)

Yea, retrofits are horrifically expensive for the return you get. I can only imagine the cost to do such a thing to the US Capital or White House for what would be a purely symbolic leadership.

Many cities and states are encouraging developers to build new structures that will qualify for LEED certification.

Fixed.

Leadership is what Americans...and the world want I think.

The country is in the position it is in right now because it was doing shit that was unsustainable and didn't make financial sense. How is paying ungold sums of money for the sake of going green good leadership?

Let me tell y'all something: If everyone had good habits, like turning your PC off when you don't use it, turn off the lights before you leave the room, leave the AC/heat at higher/lower temperatures, etc, we wouldn't even need retrofitting the new buildings.

The biggest problem is when you have like 300 pound government workers complaining about the AC being set at 75F...
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Last week (?) Germany couldn't sell all the bonds it was trying to, a historically unusual occurence. At least for now the US hasn't had that problem (it very well may, though).
 

alphatarget1

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2001
5,710
0
76
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Last week (?) Germany couldn't sell all the bonds it was trying to, a historically unusual occurence. At least for now the US hasn't had that problem (it very well may, though).

I was wondering why the hell Germany would have a national debt when they export so much good stuff. My German friend told me that Germany takes on debt to pay entitlements... imagine that happening in the US!