Georgia (legislator?) says Women are like Cows and Pigs

[dank69]

You mean like the kind Stephen Hawking has?

No I mean like the kind you have.

 

[zsdersw]

Not all problems can be instantly solved. The start is to remove that which prevents the problem from ever being solved.

How are you going to solve the problem in those states if you're not a resident of that state? What right do pro-lifers in, say, Arkansas have to tell people in, say, Illinois that they must make abortion illegal?

If it's up to each state, it's up to each state; people in one state have no dominion over the status of abortion in another state.

As I said, it's not really about state rights for those who want to overturn Roe v. Wade... they won't be satisfied until they've imposed their 100% ban on abortion on all other states.

 

[Lanyap]

Yeah, I guess when you are talking about women and birth control, you somehow just HAVE to start talking about delivering dead calves.

There was absolutely NO connection between the two.

I mean, if I were to be talking about Affirmative Action legislation, and then relate my experience working at the monkey cages in the zoo, I am sure NOBODY would make ANY connection between the two.

Completely innocent.

All he was saying is that it is sad to see animals born dead like it's sad to see human babies "born" dead due to abortion.

 

[cybrsage]

No I mean like the kind you have.

I see that you consider those who are faster, smarter, better looking, funnier, and happier than you to have a genetic defect. Interesting view of life, even if it is wrong.

 

[cybrsage]

How are you going to solve the problem in those states if you're not a resident of that state?

I am not the only person in the United States.

What right do pro-lifers in, say, Arkansas have to tell people in, say, Illinois that they must make abortion illegal?

The same right those in Arkansas have to tell people in, say, Illinois they must make abortion legal.

If it's up to each state, it's up to each state; people in one state have no dominion over the status of abortion in another state.

You are correct.

As I said, it's not really about state rights for those who want to overturn Roe v. Wade... they won't be satisfied until they've imposed their 100% ban on abortion on all other states.

"They" are people who live in every state.

So you finally admit that removing the fed gov from the picture is the first needed step in allowing each state to decide for themselves?

 

[zsdersw]

I am not the only person in the United States.

True, but you're apparently one of the relative few who think that making abortion a state issue will eventually lead to abortion being illegal in every state. The fact that a significant majority of the country wants abortion to remain legal in certain situations makes your preferred scenario extremely unlikely.

The same right those in Arkansas have to tell people in, say, Illinois they must make abortion legal.

There is no such right, and never have I claimed there was.

You are correct.

I know.

"They" are people who live in every state.

Yes, that's true, but they are the minority in many states.

So you finally admit that removing the fed gov from the picture is the first needed step in allowing each state to decide for themselves?

Nowhere was that ever in dispute. What I dispute is your claim that making abortion up to the states will lead, eventually or otherwise, to abortion being 100% illegal in all states.

 

[Ninjahedge]

All he was saying is that it is sad to see animals born dead like it's sad to see human babies "born" dead due to abortion.

I am not reading into it that much.

He simply talked about abortion, then talked about stillborn farm animals. It was just plain STUPID.

The problem being, at its root, that his feelings on this are somewhere close to this. He does not see much difference between women and farm animals when it comes to this issue or he would not have thought about it and put it in a speech/address.

If he THOUGHT about it, he would have seen how it could be EASILY misconstrued and not put it in there for risk of ruining whatever point he was trying to make.

Sometimes a persons mistakes are not mistakes. Sometimes that is who they are and how they feel.

 

[cubby1223]

I am not reading into it that much.

He simply talked about abortion, then talked about stillborn farm animals. It was just plain STUPID.

The problem being, at its root, that his feelings on this are somewhere close to this. He does not see much difference between women and farm animals when it comes to this issue or he would not have thought about it and put it in a speech/address.

If he THOUGHT about it, he would have seen how it could be EASILY misconstrued and not put it in there for risk of ruining whatever point he was trying to make.

Sometimes a persons mistakes are not mistakes. Sometimes that is who they are and how they feel.

Women give birth. Barnyard animals give birth.

I hope no one EVER dares makes that observation again! Oh the HUMANITY!!!!!!! The wrath of Ninjahedge!!!!!!

 

[Ninjahedge]

Cubby, did you think about what you posted, or are you saying that women can be treated like farm animals because they remind you of them.

"Oh the HUMANITY" has never been more ironic.

 

[cybrsage]

True, but you're apparently one of the relative few who think that making abortion a state issue will eventually lead to abortion being illegal in every state. The fact that a significant majority of the country wants abortion to remain legal in certain situations makes your preferred scenario extremely unlikely.

It is impossible to make abortion illegal in every state when the fed gov forces it to be legal. Do you agree with this?

Without the first step, the following steps cannot happen...you cannot have a second step without a first step.

There is no such right, and never have I claimed there was.

This is also my reply to your question.

Yes, that's true, but they are the minority in many states.

Maybe, but the pendelum swing is still in motion.

Nowhere was that ever in dispute. What I dispute is your claim that making abortion up to the states will lead, eventually or otherwise, to abortion being 100% illegal in all states.

It could. We both know there was a time when abortion was illegal in every state. It was this way for most of the life of the US, in fact.

 

[zsdersw]

It is impossible to make abortion illegal in every state when the fed gov forces it to be legal. Do you agree with this?

Without the first step, the following steps cannot happen...you cannot have a second step without a first step.

Yes I do, but there is no additional connection between the federal government turning abortion over to the states and abortion becoming illegal in every state. The simple act of overturning Roe v. Wade doesn't mean all states will choose to make abortion illegal.

Taking a first step does not guarantee or necessitate a second step.

Maybe, but the pendelum swing is still in motion.

Ah yes... the last refuge: hope.

It could. We both know there was a time when abortion was illegal in every state. It was this way for most of the life of the US, in fact.

The genie doesn't go back in the bottle so easily.

What do you think most pro-lifers would do when they are repeatedly unable to make abortion illegal in their state? How patient are most of them going to be? What is likely to be their chosen method of recourse?

 

[cybrsage]

Yes I do, but there is no additional connection between the federal government turning abortion over to the states and abortion becoming illegal in every state. The simple act of overturning Roe v. Wade doesn't mean all states will choose to make abortion illegal.

Taking a first step does not guarantee or necessitate a second step.

No, it does not. It does, as you have already agreed with, allow the second step to happen. I am not sure what you are arguing against at this point, since we both agree the second step is impossible without the first.

Ah yes... the last refuge: hope.

Have you never heard of the social pendulum?

The genie doesn't go back in the bottle so easily.

No one said doing the right thing is easy. If it was, everyone would do it.

What do you think most pro-lifers would do when they are repeatedly unable to make abortion illegal in their state? How patient are most of them going to be? What is likely to be their chosen method of recourse?

Continue to try; patience is a virtue. Most likely the same tactic used by those who wish abortion to be legal, if I were to make a completely random guess at it. You know, attempt to get laws passed which outlaw abortion. The same type of thing those who want abortion legal do.

What do you think they will do?

 

[zsdersw]

No, it does not. It does, as you have already agreed with, allow the second step to happen. I am not sure what you are arguing against at this point, since we both agree the second step is impossible without the first.

I'm arguing against the belief that taking the first step will lead to another one being taken. It's possible, but I'm arguing against your belief that it's somehow likely.

Have you never heard of the social pendulum?

Yes, and on a personal level it all comes down to just what I said: hope; hope that things will become as you want them to become.

The trend I see playing out, for at least the rest of your life and mine, is more libertarian and less populist. More individual rights and less collective rights. Less taxes and moralizing and more economic and personal liberty. The coming failure of the welfare state underscores the waning belief in and trust of government and those who seek to use it to force a particular economic or social agenda. This will skewer the traditional platforms of both the Republican and Democratic parties; both evangelicals/social conservatives and radical left-wingers will lose the most. It won't be limited to the federal government, either. State governments will lose power and become a much less popular platform to push economic and social agendas, too.

That's the direction I see the pendulum swinging in, whether or not Roe v. Wade is overturned.

No one said doing the right thing is easy. If it was, everyone would do it.

Your right thing isn't necessarily most people's right thing. I, for one, do not believe abortion should always be illegal. This is also a belief shared by a significant majority of the nation.

Abortion may become more restricted, but always illegal.. particularly in cases of rape and to protect the life of the mother.. no, that's not going to happen.

Continue to try; patience is a virtue. Most likely the same tactic used by those who wish abortion to be legal, if I were to make a completely random guess at it. You know, attempt to get laws passed which outlaw abortion. The same type of thing those who want abortion legal do.

What do you think they will do?

I think the temptation to force the issue at the federal level is too high. This temptation manifests itself in too many other issues for me to believe abortion will somehow be exempt.

I think those in one state who want abortion to be illegal in all circumstances in more than just their state will become impatient at other states' refusal to make it 100% illegal and seek a federal law or constitutional amendment. The performing of abortions in states where it remains legal that are sought by women who are residents of states where it is illegal will fuel the fire.

I do not share your optimism about federalism prevailing... definitely not in either of our lifetimes.