George Washington's warnings

[halik]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: halik
This underscores my sentiments exactly.

I have NO idea why our representatives intent on sympathizing with one or other side in this absurd conflict. Stop the money and the fighting will stop also.

Stop the money and leave the playground to Russia. You're probably saying that from the standpoint of someone who's sure that the sheer number of Arabs would lead to Israel's defeat if cut from US aid. Just to remind you, US had a weapons embargo on Israel up until 1967, and yet Israel withstood very well. Israel's weapons industry is the third or fourth biggest in the world, and the entire economic aid amounts to 3.5 billion USD a year, Israel can do without that. And it has nukes, too!

Which reminds me of a story - Russia never hesitated to intervene in these conflicts. I read a memoir from a Blackbird (SR71) pilot, who said that back in 1973, Russia provided Arab forces satellite images of Israeli forced, which granted Arabs a huge tactical advantage. US countered by sending a Blackbird to photograph the area and provide counter images to Israel.

Yeah well cold war is over and if you're trying to make an argument that they don't need US foreign aid, then even better. I really don't care who wins, so long we're not wasting tax money there.

 

[marvdmartian]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The world is a very different place than it was in 1796 to adhere to those types of beliefs is rather foolish.

In 1796 there was NO income tax.
The policy of judicial review had not been created yet.
The US did not even have a Navy at the time.

Uh, yeah........you might want to check your facts on that on, prof!

US Navy formed in 1775

In 1796, the navy celebrated it's 21st birthday. They celebrate their 213th this year.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
At first. From 1948 to 1953. What are you doing now, point-picking?

Just presenting the facts to back up my statement that "Russia gave up on Israel long ago", a claim you tried to suggest was false.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: marvdmartian

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The world is a very different place than it was in 1796 to adhere to those types of beliefs is rather foolish.

In 1796 there was NO income tax.
The policy of judicial review had not been created yet.
The US did not even have a Navy at the time.

Uh, yeah........you might want to check your facts on that on, prof!

US Navy formed in 1775

In 1796, the navy celebrated it's 21st birthday. They celebrate their 213th this year.

To be fair the blue water US navy didn't amount to much until well after the turn of 1900 and did not reach supremacy until WWII. Our real strength was in privateers that raided commerce during wartime.

The only possible exception would be the six revolutionary frigates designed by Joshua Humphreys which under competent command could school Royal Navy ships (much to their dismay in the War of 1812).

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: halik
This underscores my sentiments exactly.

I have NO idea why our representatives intent on sympathizing with one or other side in this absurd conflict. Stop the money and the fighting will stop also.

You don't support Israel? ANTI-SEMITIC ISLAMO FASCIST HAMAS HUGGER ALERT!

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: marvdmartian

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The world is a very different place than it was in 1796 to adhere to those types of beliefs is rather foolish.

In 1796 there was NO income tax.
The policy of judicial review had not been created yet.
The US did not even have a Navy at the time.

Uh, yeah........you might want to check your facts on that on, prof!

US Navy formed in 1775

In 1796, the navy celebrated it's 21st birthday. They celebrate their 213th this year.

Actually Prof John got it right in all the ways that matter.

While the US had a navy during the Revolutionary War, the last ship in the navy was sold off in 1783.

From 1783 to 1797 there were no armed US navy ships in service, with the sole armed ships in US Government service being from the Revenue Cutter Service which didn't even exist until 1790. The US Navy simply didn't exist by any reasonable measure during this period.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Act_of_1794

Edit: Unless its recently been edited, the Wikipedia link you cited even made this information pretty clear if you bothered to check.

The one other detail slightly confusing things is there were ships under construction in 1796 due to the naval act of 1794, but ultimately we're talking about 6 frigates which didn't exactly make the US competitive with most European navies at the time.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: K1052
The only possible exception would be the six revolutionary frigates designed by Joshua Humphreys which under competent command could school Royal Navy ships (much to their dismay in the War of 1812).

As stated this is rather misleading. (These were the frigates from the naval act of 1794 by the way)

Yes they enjoyed impressive individual victories, but their actual strategic impact was essentially non-existent during the conflict. Six frigates simply couldn't do enough to matter much against the UK, and that still would have been true against most other European navies at the time. Most of the actual impact naval wise which actually had any impact on the UK during the War of 1812 was done by US privateers which existed in much greater numbers than the formal US Navy ships.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Jiggz

Originally posted by: halik
This underscores my sentiments exactly.

I have NO idea why our representatives intent on sympathizing with one or other side in this absurd conflict. Stop the money and the fighting will stop also.

Stop the money? Who Iran and Syria will stop the money flowing into Hamas and Hezbollah? Sure, the US can stop the flow of $$ into Israel but how do you stop Iran and Syria? If you can do that, you are absolutely correct, the fighting will stop! But how? We can't even stop Iran from developing a nuclear bomb let alone how they spend their $$$!

Exactly as usual Halik doesn`t seem to grasp this truth!!

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: K1052
The only possible exception would be the six revolutionary frigates designed by Joshua Humphreys which under competent command could school Royal Navy ships (much to their dismay in the War of 1812).

As stated this is rather misleading. (These were the frigates from the naval act of 1794 by the way)

Yes they enjoyed impressive individual victories, but their actual strategic impact was essentially non-existent during the conflict. Six frigates simply couldn't do enough to matter much against the UK, and that still would have been true against most other European navies at the time. Most of the actual impact naval wise which actually had any impact on the UK during the War of 1812 was done by US privateers which existed in much greater numbers than the formal US Navy ships.

I believe I noted the importance of privateers in the portion of my post which you saw fit to cut out.

The British were not at all accustomed to their warships losing in battles against what they considered to be a 3rd rate power. Captains of British frigates were later forbidden from engaging the American frigates while on their own. The Royal Navy had been built up in the English mind to be all but invulnerable and they were disabused of that notion. The psychological importance of the victories on both nations certainly weighed on the war.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Jiggz

Originally posted by: halik
This underscores my sentiments exactly.

I have NO idea why our representatives intent on sympathizing with one or other side in this absurd conflict. Stop the money and the fighting will stop also.

Stop the money? Who Iran and Syria will stop the money flowing into Hamas and Hezbollah? Sure, the US can stop the flow of $$ into Israel but how do you stop Iran and Syria? If you can do that, you are absolutely correct, the fighting will stop! But how? We can't even stop Iran from developing a nuclear bomb let alone how they spend their $$$!

Exactly as usual Halik doesn`t seem to grasp this truth!!

Fantastic argument there, buddy...

Why should we care that Iran and Syria are supporting Palestinian government (hey they elected them)? That region of the world has been fighting for the past 50 years and all we've done is throw sticks to the fire. I really don't give a shit what Hezbolla/Hammas do, it's not my country nor my problem.

And if you try to come back with an argument that they'll do another 9/11, you can stop right there. If a semi-recognized government (Hamas) organizes some sort of terrorists attack against sovereign US entity, they would bring upon themselves a shit storm the world's never seen before. I'm talking scorched earth and glass parking lot... and they know that.

My whole point is when you mess around with idiot's affairs, you only end up stupider. If you sit down and actually look up what caused the 9/11 attacks, it was ultimately a holly roller's response to our foreign policy in saudi arabia. And no, it didn't happen because turrist hate our freedum.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Jiggz

Originally posted by: halik
This underscores my sentiments exactly.

I have NO idea why our representatives intent on sympathizing with one or other side in this absurd conflict. Stop the money and the fighting will stop also.

Stop the money? Who Iran and Syria will stop the money flowing into Hamas and Hezbollah? Sure, the US can stop the flow of $$ into Israel but how do you stop Iran and Syria? If you can do that, you are absolutely correct, the fighting will stop! But how? We can't even stop Iran from developing a nuclear bomb let alone how they spend their $$$!

Exactly as usual Halik doesn`t seem to grasp this truth!!

Fantastic argument there, buddy...

Why should we care that Iran and Syria are supporting Palestinian government (hey they elected them)? That region of the world has been fighting for the past 50 years and all we've done is throw sticks to the fire. I really don't give a shit what Hezbolla/Hammas do, it's not my country nor my problem.

And if you try to come back with an argument that they'll do another 9/11, you can stop right there. If a semi-recognized government (Hamas) organizes some sort of terrorists attack against sovereign US entity, they would bring upon themselves a shit storm the world's never seen before. I'm talking scorched earth and glass parking lot... and they know that.

My whole point is when you mess around with idiot's affairs, you only end up stupider. If you sit down and actually look up what caused the 9/11 attacks, it was ultimately a holly roller's response to our foreign policy in saudi arabia. And no, it didn't happen because turrist hate our freedum.

You really don`t get it do you.......so sad.......
you make the assinine statement -- "Stop the money and the fighting will stop also. "

I am sorry that is totally 100% wrong!!!
If we stop supporting Israel do you actually believe that those who are supporting Hamas will stop?
If you do then you live in land of fairy tales!!

Yet what you fail to grasp is that Israel did just fine before we ventured onto the scene in approx 1967......Israel had no problms defending themselves.

If we had never ventured onto the scene nothing would change........Israel would still be fighting and defending themselves against those who would love to see Israel go away!!

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: Jiggz

Originally posted by: halik
This underscores my sentiments exactly.

I have NO idea why our representatives intent on sympathizing with one or other side in this absurd conflict. Stop the money and the fighting will stop also.

Stop the money? Who Iran and Syria will stop the money flowing into Hamas and Hezbollah? Sure, the US can stop the flow of $$ into Israel but how do you stop Iran and Syria? If you can do that, you are absolutely correct, the fighting will stop! But how? We can't even stop Iran from developing a nuclear bomb let alone how they spend their $$$!

Exactly as usual Halik doesn`t seem to grasp this truth!!

Fantastic argument there, buddy...

Why should we care that Iran and Syria are supporting Palestinian government (hey they elected them)? That region of the world has been fighting for the past 50 years and all we've done is throw sticks to the fire. I really don't give a shit what Hezbolla/Hammas do, it's not my country nor my problem.

And if you try to come back with an argument that they'll do another 9/11, you can stop right there. If a semi-recognized government (Hamas) organizes some sort of terrorists attack against sovereign US entity, they would bring upon themselves a shit storm the world's never seen before. I'm talking scorched earth and glass parking lot... and they know that.

My whole point is when you mess around with idiot's affairs, you only end up stupider. If you sit down and actually look up what caused the 9/11 attacks, it was ultimately a holly roller's response to our foreign policy in saudi arabia. And no, it didn't happen because turrist hate our freedum.

You really don`t get it do you.......so sad.......
you make the assinine statement -- "Stop the money and the fighting will stop also. "

I am sorry that is totally 100% wrong!!!
If we stop supporting Israel do you actually believe that those who are supporting Hamas will stop?
If you do then you live in land of fairy tales!!

Yet what you fail to grasp is that Israel did just fine before we ventured onto the scene in approx 1967......Israel had no problms defending themselves.

If we had never ventured onto the scene nothing would change........Israel would still be fighting and defending themselves against those who would love to see Israel go away!!

I think you missed what I said: If you cut off all the money to the region the fighting will stop. If iran/syria/whoever wants to keep sending money to Palestine it's their problem and the fighting will probably keep on going as it was for the past 50 years.

My main argument is, we have NOTHING to gain by picking sides and sending money to whomever we pick. That policy is as stupid as the actual conflict and especially if you're right and Israel doesn't need it. Hey they've got nukes and hamas got a couple of Katushas... I'm pretty sure i know who wins this round. But what Israel is doing right now only helps to recruit the next generation of Hamas and 'martyrs' which fuels the quid pro quo idiocy on and on.

Polls show that Americans don't want to take sides in this and from what I can tell the general sentiment is "not this shit again". Let jews and arabs act like idiots, it's pretty much a tradition at this point, but don't use our money to engage in it.