Geneva Convention reforms needed

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
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Rules of war enable terror

By Alan M. Dershowitz
Originally published May 28, 2004


THE GENEVA Conventions are so outdated and are written so broadly that they have become a sword used by terrorists to kill civilians, rather than a shield to protect civilians from terrorists. These international laws have become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

Following World War II, in which millions of civilians were killed by armed forces, the international community strengthened the laws designed to distinguish between legitimate military targets and off-limit noncombatants. The line in those days was clear: The military wore uniforms, were part of a nation's organized armed forces, and generally lived in military bases outside of population centers. Noncombatants, on the other hand, wore civilian clothing and lived mostly in areas distant from the battlefields.

The war by terrorists against democracies has changed all this. Terrorists who do not care about the laws of warfare target innocent noncombatants. Indeed, their goal is to maximize the number of deaths and injuries among the most vulnerable civilians, such as children, women and the elderly. They employ suicide bombers who cannot be deterred by the threat of death or imprisonment because they are brainwashed to believe that their reward awaits them in another world. They have no "return address."

The terrorist leaders - who do not wear military uniforms - deliberately hide among noncombatants. They have also used ambulances, women pretending to be sick or pregnant, and even children as carriers of lethal explosives.

By employing these tactics, terrorists put the democracies to difficult choices: Either allow those who plan and coordinate terrorist attacks to escape justice and continue their victimization of civilians, or attack them in their enclaves, thereby risking death or injury to the civilians they are using as human shields.

Whenever a civilian is accidentally killed or an ambulance is held up at a checkpoint, the terrorist leaders, and those who support them, have exploited the post-World War II laws of warfare to condemn the democracies for violating the letter of the law. Some human rights groups, international organizations and churches have joined this chorus of condemnation, equating the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians by terrorists with the unintended consequences of trying to combat terrorism - unintended by the democracies, but quite specifically intended, indeed provoked by, the terrorists. This only encourages more terrorism, since the terrorists receive a double benefit from their actions. First they benefit from killing "enemy" civilians. Second, they benefit from the condemnation heaped on their enemies. Human rights are thus being used to promote human wrongs.

The time has come to revisit the laws of war and to make them relevant to new realities. If their ultimate purpose was to serve as a shield to protect innocent civilians, they are failing miserably, since they are being used as a sword by terrorists who target such innocent civilians. Several changes should be considered:


First, democracies must be legally empowered to attack terrorists who hide among civilians, so long as proportional force is employed. Civilians who are killed while being used as human shields by terrorists must be deemed the victims of the terrorists who have chosen to hide among them, rather than those of the democracies who may have fired the fatal shot.

Second, a new category of prisoner should be recognized for captured terrorists and those who support them. They are not "prisoners of war," neither are they "ordinary criminals." They are suspected terrorists who operate outside the laws of war, and a new status should be designated for them - a status that affords them certain humanitarian rights, but does not treat them as traditional combatants.

Third, the law must come to realize that the traditional sharp line between combatants and civilians has been replaced by a continuum of civilian-ness. At the innocent end are those who do not support terrorism in any way. In the middle are those who applaud the terrorism, encourage it, but do not actively facilitate it. At the guilty end are those who help finance it, who make martyrs of the suicide bombers, who help the terrorists hide among them, and who fail to report imminent attacks of which they are aware. The law should recognize this continuum in dealing with those who are complicit, to some degree, in terrorism.

Fourth, the treaties against all forms of torture must begin to recognize differences in degree among varying forms of rough interrogation, ranging from trickery and humiliation, on the one hand, to lethal torture on the other. They must also recognize that any country faced with a ticking-time-bomb terrorist would resort to some forms of interrogation that are today prohibited by the treaty.
International law must recognize that democracies have been forced by the tactics of terrorists to make difficult decisions regarding life and death. The old black-and-white distinctions must be replaced by new categories, rules and approaches that strike the proper balance between preserving human rights and preventing human wrongs. For the law to work, it must be realistic and it must adapt to changing needs.


Alan M. Dershowitz is a professor of law at Harvard University and the author of America on Trial (Warner Books, 2004).


Copyright © 2004, The Baltimore Sun
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
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First, democracies must be legally empowered to attack terrorists who hide among civilians, so long as proportional force is employed. Civilians who are killed while being used as human shields by terrorists must be deemed the victims of the terrorists who have chosen to hide among them, rather than those of the democracies who may have fired the fatal shot.
That doesnt make sense and can be so easily exploited. There would be nothing to get the force attacking the suspsected terrorists from even thinking for a second that everyone there is not just a suspected terrorist but a terrroist no matter if they are civilans or not. That is just as a total disregard for human life as we think the terrrorists have.

Second, a new category of prisoner should be recognized for captured terrorists and those who support them. They are not "prisoners of war," neither are they "ordinary criminals." They are suspected terrorists who operate outside the laws of war, and a new status should be designated for them - a status that affords them certain humanitarian rights, but does not treat them as traditional combatants.
This I agree on, but with their rights must come a much much tighter inspection on how they are being treated than with traditional combatants because of the much higher likelyness of them being just ordinary people and not terrroirsts. Because after all, they are just suspects.

Third, the law must come to realize that the traditional sharp line between combatants and civilians has been replaced by a continuum of civilian-ness. At the innocent end are those who do not support terrorism in any way. In the middle are those who applaud the terrorism, encourage it, but do not actively facilitate it. At the guilty end are those who help finance it, who make martyrs of the suicide bombers, who help the terrorists hide among them, and who fail to report imminent attacks of which they are aware. The law should recognize this continuum in dealing with those who are complicit, to some degree, in terrorism.
agreed with a proper system to make sure that they are not going after the wrong people and for this laws would have to be set with punishments for each part, this would be perfect for the ICC

Fourth, the treaties against all forms of torture must begin to recognize differences in degree among varying forms of rough interrogation, ranging from trickery and humiliation, on the one hand, to lethal torture on the other. They must also recognize that any country faced with a ticking-time-bomb terrorist would resort to some forms of interrogation that are today prohibited by the treaty.
International law must recognize that democracies have been forced by the tactics of terrorists to make difficult decisions regarding life and death. The old black-and-white distinctions must be replaced by new categories, rules and approaches that strike the proper balance between preserving human rights and preventing human wrongs. For the law to work, it must be realistic and it must adapt to changing needs.
This im totaly against, the definition of torture in the Geneva Convention should be extended to cover mental torture and prolonged physical torture as well.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
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So, lets say hypothetically some Mr.OBL has a hiden bomb in a building in NYC. Its going to explode in 3 hours and he is the only one who knows. You think he is going to tell you kindly where that bomb is?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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Originally posted by: Tabb
So, lets say hypothetically some Mr.OBL has a hiden bomb in a building in NYC. Its going to explode in 3 hours and he is the only one who knows. You think he is going to tell you kindly where that bomb is?
If you knew anything about interrogations then you would know the answer is very likely YES. Two separate friends with the FBI (one in SF, the other in NC) both say the most effective technique is still just asking questions. The vast majority of perpetrators will give up everything.

By definition, a zealot isn't going to give up anything so what's the point of torture? Most information I've seen implies the information culled from " exceptional techniques" is quite unreliable.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
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1
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Dershowitz is a special brand of liberal. This is the same guy that has advocated torture warrants (hardly a liberal position). (Though it's not relevant to his argument I also think he feels he has a duty to defend Israel from condemnation [which is where a lot of his ideas really came from: defending Israel). He has interesting ideas but ultimately I feel his arguments boil down to stooping to our enemy's level. We need the moral high ground. We have the legal weapons to combat terrorism. We have the political tools to lower terrorism (we just don't use them). What we do not need is the stripping away of the rule of law. The Nazis and Japanese stooped low to and we beat them in WW2 without stooping to their level. Yes, terrorism is different, but let's keep the moral highground.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: Tabb
So, lets say hypothetically some Mr.OBL has a hiden bomb in a building in NYC. Its going to explode in 3 hours and he is the only one who knows. You think he is going to tell you kindly where that bomb is?
as long as he is only a "suspected terrorist" the option of torture shouldnt even be up for discussion
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,749
584
126
Originally posted by: Infohawk
The Nazis and Japanese stooped low to and we beat them in WW2 without stooping to their level. Yes, terrorism is different, but let's keep the moral highground.

Not to nit pick your post or anything...because I agree with a lot of it. But that last part just plain isn't true.

We sent Japanese americans to containment camps, incinerated Japanese civilians in our fire bombing campaign and terror bombed Germany in retaliation for them doing that to England.

War is ugly, and the United States isn't immune to this ugliness. I think we'd better get on the right track if we want to get that moral high ground back. If thats even possible anymore.
 

MegaWorks

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
3,819
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Alan M. Dershowitz is a biggot, the only reason he's writing this is because he wants the world to support Israel's occupation in the palestinian territories, just visite the jewishworldreview.com. and read his other reviews.

They employ suicide bombers who cannot be deterred by the threat of death or imprisonment because they are brainwashed to believe that their reward awaits them in another world. They have no "return address."

Why can't he write on the ideology of occupation then he can write about the effects of the occupation!
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
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Originally posted by: PingSpike
Originally posted by: Infohawk
The Nazis and Japanese stooped low to and we beat them in WW2 without stooping to their level. Yes, terrorism is different, but let's keep the moral highground.

Not to nit pick your post or anything...because I agree with a lot of it. But that last part just plain isn't true.

We sent Japanese americans to containment camps, incinerated Japanese civilians in our fire bombing campaign and terror bombed Germany in retaliation for them doing that to England.

War is ugly, and the United States isn't immune to this ugliness. I think we'd better get on the right track if we want to get that moral high ground back. If thats even possible anymore.


You are right. I overlooked those facts.