General Motors to cut 25,000 jobs

[BCYL]

Originally posted by: Queasy
My wife's uncle works in their Doraville, GA plant (just inside I-285 near I-85 in Atlanta). Hopefully, his job will be safe since they are making the new Buick and Saturn mini-vans.

Might not be as safe as you think, there are rumors about GM killing the Buick and Saturn brands...

 

[getbush]

Hey at least those 25,00 can still get eh employee discount on a new GM wonder depreciator!

 

[canadageek]

not just that, but it's the canadian workers that are getting the shaft...that sucks

West coast RULES!

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: jpeyton
:thumbsup: Good for GM.

Usually I'm very against job cuts, but UAW doesn't want to give up their lavish health-care and pension benefits, so GM is left with no choice.

If you were part of the UAW would you want to give it up ?

ya, if the alternative was to see GM go under. :roll:

i understand that unions have to take stands but it must also be measured against the times. you can't expect the company to give you the exact same benefits in hard times as it did when it was at it's peak.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: jpeyton
:thumbsup: Good for GM.

Usually I'm very against job cuts, but UAW doesn't want to give up their lavish health-care and pension benefits, so GM is left with no choice.

If you were part of the UAW would you want to give it up ?

I took the time and expense to get an education so I have no need for any job that is unionized. The UAW is a group of basically unskilled workers DEMANDING a premium on the labor market. It has to go away or it will break the back of the US auto makers.

 

[getbush]

Ok this is a stab in the dark, but wouldn't canadian employees' health care costs be less than that of American's? Do private taxes funs that system? Or do businesses foot a lot of it?

 

[CrackRabbit]

Originally posted by: jumpr
They should stop producing duplicate models, a la the Cavalier/Sunfire, and possibly even shrink their staple brands to just two or three.

My ideal GM would be (here in America):
Chevrolet
Saturn
Holden/Buick
Cadillac
Saab
Hummer

Get rid of Buick, and start consolidating brands, and differentiating those brands that are distinct from each other.

Fixed that a bit better.
Ditch Pontiac and GMC completly, Saturn has some interesting new models coming out that would be worth keeping it around. And rebadge Holdens as Buicks here in the US, Establishing the Holden name would take more time and money than GM has to invest in it. Sell them as Buicks and change as little as possible from their Aussie counterparts.
Also return Saab to sweeden where it belongs, no more rebadged Opel and Subaru crap.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: jpeyton
:thumbsup: Good for GM.

Usually I'm very against job cuts, but UAW doesn't want to give up their lavish health-care and pension benefits, so GM is left with no choice.

If you were part of the UAW would you want to give it up ?

I took the time and expense to get an education so I have no need for any job that is unionized. The UAW is a group of basically unskilled workers DEMANDING a premium on the labor market. It has to go away or it will break the back of the US auto makers.

i disagree, i am usually against unions but i also see the place for them. the only thing i don't like about unions is that they are allowed to be monopolies. i think there should be competing unions. when there is a strike management should be able to negotiate with 3 or 4 different unions until the market sets a price.

the fact that unions are allowed to monopolize is one reason why the economy has shown such a failure at setting market wages for unionized industries.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: CrackRabbit

Originally posted by: jumpr
They should stop producing duplicate models, a la the Cavalier/Sunfire, and possibly even shrink their staple brands to just two or three.

My ideal GM would be (here in America):
Chevrolet
Saturn
Holden/Buick
Cadillac
Saab
Hummer

Get rid of Buick, and start consolidating brands, and differentiating those brands that are distinct from each other.

Fixed that a bit better.
Ditch Pontiac and GMC completly, Saturn has some interesting new models coming out that would be worth keeping it around. And rebadge Holdens as Buicks here in the US, Establishing the Holden name would take more time and money than GM has to invest in it. Sell them as Buicks and change as little as possible from their Aussie counterparts.
Also return Saab to sweeden where it belongs, no more rebadged Opel and Subaru crap.

wouldn't it be better to market the holden as a pontiac? buick has a bit of a staid image no?

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: jpeyton
:thumbsup: Good for GM.

Usually I'm very against job cuts, but UAW doesn't want to give up their lavish health-care and pension benefits, so GM is left with no choice.

If you were part of the UAW would you want to give it up ?

I took the time and expense to get an education so I have no need for any job that is unionized. The UAW is a group of basically unskilled workers DEMANDING a premium on the labor market. It has to go away or it will break the back of the US auto makers.

i disagree, i am usually against unions but i also see the place for them. the only thing i don't like about unions is that they are allowed to be monopolies. i think there should be competing unions. when there is a strike management should be able to negotiate with 3 or 4 different unions until the market sets a price.

the fact that unions are allowed to monopolize is one reason why the economy has shown such a failure at setting market wages for unionized industries.

How could you have more than one union for any given trade/industry? That would be utter chaos and potentially worse than the current situation. Your idea simply would not work. Unions will either go away in the next decade or so or they will take down the companies/industries they choke due to global market pressures. The "at will" states will boom and the unionized Northern states will simply wither and die a stagnating death.

 

[Vic]

Every laid off worker will have only the UAW to blame. GM is bleeding money out of their auto manufacturing division right now, and the union's unwillingness to budge on compensation makes layoffs unavoidable. That or close the doors (which I'm sure GM wouldn't mind right now, what with the high profitability of their finance divisions).

edit: Competiting unions is an excellent idea.

 

[huesmann]

Originally posted by: bernse
Unfortunately, that isn't how most unions look at things. They usually think the company is bluffing (sometimes they are) and then when they close and they lose their jobs, its just "oops. Sorry about that guys." and blame the company anymore.

The Airline industry is another great one, but the companies are also in part to blame by agreeing to some of these outrageous conditions with the union in the first place.

As is GM.

 

[klah]

They should start with these morons:

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13192

JANESVILLE, Wis. -- Less than 100 yards away from the main entrance to the General Motors Corp. assembly plant here stands Zachow's tavern.

On an early afternoon in mid-March, GM workers who build big Chevrolet Suburban sport-utility vehicles sat elbow-to-elbow on bar stools, smoking cigarettes and drinking Milwaukee-brewed Miller beers and shots of scotch. Zachow's sells deep-fried pork rinds and 24 beers for $24. A sign in the corner reads: "Finish your beer. There are sober kids in India."

Mr. Zachow said workers don't get drunk when they hit his bar during breaks. "They only have less than a half-hour for their breaks. If they can get two or three beers down, that's about it," Mr. Zachow said. "It's fast and furious. And they get a little exercise walking over. The bar is in a good place. If they were going down to the other bar down the street, they'd have to go down a whole mile."

"You can't control what people do on their lunch hour," said GM spokesman Jerry Dubrowski.

But company executives, bound by labor agreements, are cautious about pestering too much. A majority of plants still allow workers to smoke on the assembly line while manufacturing GM vehicles.

GM Quality #1

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: isekii

Originally posted by: jpeyton
:thumbsup: Good for GM.

Usually I'm very against job cuts, but UAW doesn't want to give up their lavish health-care and pension benefits, so GM is left with no choice.

If you were part of the UAW would you want to give it up ?

I took the time and expense to get an education so I have no need for any job that is unionized. The UAW is a group of basically unskilled workers DEMANDING a premium on the labor market. It has to go away or it will break the back of the US auto makers.

i disagree, i am usually against unions but i also see the place for them. the only thing i don't like about unions is that they are allowed to be monopolies. i think there should be competing unions. when there is a strike management should be able to negotiate with 3 or 4 different unions until the market sets a price.

the fact that unions are allowed to monopolize is one reason why the economy has shown such a failure at setting market wages for unionized industries.

How could you have more than one union for any given trade/industry? That would be utter chaos and potentially worse than the current situation. Your idea simply would not work. Unions will either go away in the next decade or so or they will take down the companies/industries they choke due to global market pressures. The "at will" states will boom and the unionized Northern states will simply wither and die a stagnating death.

how would it be chaos? sure, at first it might require govt intervention, but that is the role of the govt, to step in where the market fails. divide the UAW into 3 unions, allow each to compete for work based on the skill and willingness of their members.

why couldn't it work, with 1/3 the workforce in each union, they would be strong enough to get some concessions from the employers (enough so that the employer couldn't ride roughshod over the employees) but because of the competition (other 2 unions) no one union would be allowed to dictate to the employer. and yes, there would have to be laws regarding colusion between the unions.

i see this working for all industries, 3 Bar associations to police the lawyers, 3 AMA's to police the doctors etc.

the biggest problem with many of the professions, law, medicine etc, is who polices them. obviously it can't be anyone from outside because they lack the expertise, and anyone from the inside has bias.

 

[Vic]

Well, why should labor be allowed monopolies, but not management and industry? How has UAW's monopoly of labor over GM affected GM's long-term survivability?

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Vic
Well, why should labor be allowed monopolies, but not management and industry? How has UAW's monopoly of labor over GM affected GM's long-term survivability?

me?? i'm against union monopolies. i feel that there would be a place for unions but only if they had to compete, compete for membership and compete for contracts with corporations.

this would give labor enough power not to be run rough shod by management but not enough power to run management dry.

 

[Analog]

Its not clear if the 25K jobs is white and blue collar together. It could be.

 

[kranky]

GM's problem isn't that they have too many workers. It's that they gave away the store over the last 50+ years and now have so many liabilities they can't possibly pay them. I don't fault the UAW for taking what they could get, but now there's nothing left.

GM owes $165 Billion in pension and health-care liabilities. The total value of GM stock is only $17 billion.

Cutting workers, making cars that appeal to more buyers, or negotiating cuts from the union isn't going to fix it. For every car GM sells, over $1000 of the cost goes to pension and health-care costs for RETIREES. There is only one worker for every five retirees who are drawing good pensions and full health-care coverage.

They only way they can make it is to get the UAW to agree to impressively large cuts in pensions/health insurance for retirees. That's not going to happen, so eventually they'll all end up with nothing.

 

[Ryan]

Originally posted by: kranky
GM's problem isn't that they have too many workers. It's that they gave away the store over the last 50+ years and now have so many liabilities they can't possibly pay them. I don't fault the UAW for taking what they could get, but now there's nothing left.

GM owes $165 Billion in pension and health-care liabilities. The total value of GM stock is only $17 billion.

Cutting workers, making cars that appeal to more buyers, or negotiating cuts from the union isn't going to fix it. For every car GM sells, over $1000 of the cost goes to pension and health-care costs for RETIREES. There is only one worker for every five retirees who are drawing good pensions and full health-care coverage.

They only way they can make it is to get the UAW to agree to impressively large cuts in pensions/health insurance for retirees. That's not going to happen, so eventually they'll all end up with nothing.

IIRC - if they file for bankruptcy, won't all contracts with UAW be void?

 

[MasterAndCommander]

They need to move their retiree plans to a 401k type of arrangement.