General consensus on 120hz LCDs?

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

I was at Magnolia yesterday staring at LCDs. I looked at the Samsung 9 series 55" and the XBR7 52". I then asked for the Sony equivalent of the 55" which was the KDL55XBR8. Amazing picture with LED backlighting I must say. anyway, with today's 120Hz, I'm curious what people think?

It makes movies look like FPS games. Sometimes it's too artificial for me, but at the same time after looking at 120Hz, the typical motion blur of a 60Hz looks like a slideshow. I understand that 120Hz does not end ghosting/motion blur but makes the jitter look better?

BTW, I have a 46" XBR2 that is amazing, but I've always and ALWAYS eyed the Pioneer Kuro Elite. I made the mistake of going for the XBR2 when 720p Plasma was more than enough. Now that 1080p is in plasma, I say hey why not? However, 50" is the only option, but I can squeeze a 55" into our family room. So if the 55" LCDs are really amazing and worth getting, I'd get that extra 5". 46" is just too small in our family room (25 ft length). I always find myself sitting on the CARPET to watch a football game (although most of my TV viewing is done at my 27" LCD computer monitor).

What do people think about the whole 120Hz business? If it's something that we all need to get used to and it's where the industry trend is moving, then maybe it's worth investing in, and would be a plus factor in choosing an LCD again. My main concern here isn't deep blacks or whatever that's obvious because I spent ages looking at XBR2/3 and Kuro Elite. I'm wondering simply about this 120Hz gimmick that we see nowadays.

Also, are the new Samsung 9 series and Sony XBR6/7/8s using TRUE 10-bit panels? It seems that way, but I'm a bit outdated, and I remember 10-bit as a marketing gimmick and only implied 10-bit LUTs with 8-bit panels. Have we gone into the realm of true 10-bit finally?

 

[sivart]

Originally posted by: DLeRium
....this 120Hz gimmick that we see nowadays.

QFT

 

[cmdrdredd]

If I were buying an LCD I'd get 120hz.

If I was buying a TV I'd get a Plasma and never look back. The new plasma sets are amazing. The Panasonic Viera 1080p sets with 480hz are excellent. The 50" can be found for around $1700. Best Buy has the 46" for $999 but very limited stock.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: sivart

Originally posted by: DLeRium
....this 120Hz gimmick that we see nowadays.

QFT

Well there's actually a substantial difference. It doesn't get rid of ghosting or input lag, but the blur that makes a movie a movie is GONE. It's almost like real life. I watched Matrix fight scenes side by side with Plasmas, 60hz LCDs and then the 120 Hz LCDs, and it really is a huge difference.

The question is what's better? I'm not used to 120 Hz motion where the blur is removed and the motion is more fluid and less movie-like. Imagine CS:Source capped at 120fps on a CRT, and then the same thing at 60fps w/ V-sync on an LCD or that stupid Need for Speed series that uses heavy motion blur. It's quite different. Am I used to my movies turning into a 3D game on my computer? Nope. Surprisingly my girlfriend saw the 120hz tvs and was like "Wow, that's like your computer games now."

There is a difference, but I'm resistant to change, and so I can't quite accept it, but if it's an industry trend, I'll slowly switch over (just like the CRT to LCD slow changeover because of resistance from gamers and graphics designers). After all I have no reason to buy a 120Hz TV just to turn that feature off all the time.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: sivart

Originally posted by: DLeRium
....this 120Hz gimmick that we see nowadays.

QFT

Well there's actually a substantial difference. It doesn't get rid of ghosting or input lag, but the blur that makes a movie a movie is GONE. It's almost like real life. I watched Matrix fight scenes side by side with Plasmas, 60hz LCDs and then the 120 Hz LCDs, and it really is a huge difference.

The question is what's better? I'm not used to 120 Hz motion where the blur is removed and the motion is more fluid and less movie-like. Imagine CS:Source capped at 120fps on a CRT, and then the same thing at 60fps w/ V-sync on an LCD or that stupid Need for Speed series that uses heavy motion blur. It's quite different. Am I used to my movies turning into a 3D game on my computer? Nope. Surprisingly my girlfriend saw the 120hz tvs and was like "Wow, that's like your computer games now."

There is a difference, but I'm resistant to change, and so I can't quite accept it, but if it's an industry trend, I'll slowly switch over (just like the CRT to LCD slow changeover because of resistance from gamers and graphics designers). After all I have no reason to buy a 120Hz TV just to turn that feature off all the time.

There are two things you are comparing here, interpolating frames and 120Hz. They're not the same. The OP is asking about the 120 Hz feature.

The only difference this results in is not having to have 3:2 pulldown and instead being able to do a 5:5 pulldown. This way there may be less of a stuttering effect observed during pans due to the equal ratio of frames.

 

[EricMartello]

120 Hz refresh rate for LCD screens is an attempt to make the on-screen motion of LCDs less jittery and more fluid...in other words, more like a plasma TV.

 

[erwos]

If you can tell the difference between 120hz and 60hz in the store, you're looking at the motion interpolation stuff. It's almost certainly not the 5:5 pull-down (aka, no judder), because, IIRC, video distribution in the store is done using ATSC and coax at 720p/1080i (if you're lucky; if not, 480p).

 

[krotchy]

The consensus is some people hate it, some people love it with a passion and some are indifferent.

It typically boils down to the fact that it does help with motion blur, but the "soap opera" effect annoys some people to the point of disliking it.

 

[Eug]

I think the idea of 120 Hz is great... but only if you have the ability to turn off interpolation.

Cuz 5:5 pulldown is definitely an advantage. However, it doesn't HAVE to be 120 Hz 5:5 pulldown.

It could be 24 Hz 1:1 or 72 Hz 3:3 or 96 Hz 4:4 or whatever. ie. Some display devices have 60 Hz for 30 fps material, but us 96 Hz for 24 fps material. It doesn't have to be 120 Hz.

P.S. I was at a Toshiba demo comparing 1080p60 to 1080p24 with 5:5 pulldown on a 120 Hz TV (without interpolation). The improvement on camera pans with 5:5 120 Hz was instantly obvious to me... but not completely obvious to everyone.

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: krotchy
The consensus is some people hate it, some people love it with a passion and some are indifferent.

It typically boils down to the fact that it does help with motion blur, but the "soap opera" effect annoys some people to the point of disliking it.

The soap opera effect does not exist if you turn off interpolation.

As mentioned before, "120 Hz" TVs may have these TWO features:

1) Interpolation - I generally don't like this. That's why I would like a 120 Hz TV where you can turn interpolation off.
2) Removal of motion judder - This is a big advantage, and never makes the image look worse (unless they royally screw something up). Either it looks the same to you, or else it looks better.

Originally posted by: erwos
If you can tell the difference between 120hz and 60hz in the store, you're looking at the motion interpolation stuff. It's almost certainly not the 5:5 pull-down (aka, no judder), because, IIRC, video distribution in the store is done using ATSC and coax at 720p/1080i (if you're lucky; if not, 480p).

That's not always true. I've been to several stores which have multiple HDMI Blu-ray players demo-ing their TVs.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

just get a plasma and not worry about any of this 120 hz stuff.

 

[Eug]

??? Plasmas don't inherently properly support 24 Hz video either for judder-free pans. You have to get the right plasma, for example one that might support 72 Hz 3:3 pulldown, and not all do. In that sense they're no different than LCDs.

And I said before 120 Hz is not the only possible frequency used for LCDs to remove motion judder. For example, some LCD projectors use 96 Hz (4:4 pulldown for 24 Hz sources)... just like some plasma displays.

 

[pennylane]

Eug is right. I'm not a fan of frame interpolation. But 5:5 pulldown = WIN.

I don't understand why everyone is saying plasmas don't have 3:2 pulldown issues. They should be susceptible to the same judderthat LCD's are unless they do 3:3, 4:4, or 5:5 pulldown (like Eug says).

 

[gorcorps]

Originally posted by: Eug

Originally posted by: krotchy
The consensus is some people hate it, some people love it with a passion and some are indifferent.

It typically boils down to the fact that it does help with motion blur, but the "soap opera" effect annoys some people to the point of disliking it.

The soap opera effect does not exist if you turn off interpolation.

As mentioned before, "120 Hz" TVs may have these TWO features:

1) Interpolation - I generally don't like this. That's why I would like a 120 Hz TV where you can turn interpolation off.
2) Removal of motion judder - This is a big advantage, and never makes the image look worse (unless they royally screw something up). Either it looks the same to you, or else it looks better.

Originally posted by: erwos
If you can tell the difference between 120hz and 60hz in the store, you're looking at the motion interpolation stuff. It's almost certainly not the 5:5 pull-down (aka, no judder), because, IIRC, video distribution in the store is done using ATSC and coax at 720p/1080i (if you're lucky; if not, 480p).

That's not always true. I've been to several stores which have multiple HDMI Blu-ray players demo-ing their TVs.

Hmmm... this 'soap opera' effect is what I must have noticed on my friend's TV and hated. He was clicking around channels and landed on an HD broadcast of Tomorrow Never Dies. I told him it looked like it never went through final production and filters, and that during fast action sequences things almost looked like they were in fast forward for small chunks of time. It was very annoying and I couldn't believe he could watch it and not notice it.

 

[Eug]

Motion Interpolation example <- I don't like this. This is the soap opera effect.

5:5 pulldown example <- This is quite nice.

For the 5:5 pulldown example, the first line is original signal. Frame A is displayed for 1/24 s. Frame B is displayed for 1/24 s. Total time is 2/24 s (or 5/60 s), with each frame shown for the exact same amount of time.

The second line shows 3:2 pulldown on a 60 Hz TV. Frame A is shown for 3/60 s (or 1.2/24 s). Frame B is shown for 2/60 (or 0.8/24 s). Total time is 5/60 s (or 2/24 s), but frame A is shown for 50% longer than frame B. This causes motion judder, which many people easily see in smooth pans.

The third line shows 5:5 pulldown on a 120 Hz TV. Frame A is shown for 5/120 s (or 1/24 s). Frame B is shown for 5/120 s (or 1/24 s). Note that this is exactly the same as the original video. Each frame is played for the proper amount of time. So, with interpolation turned off, 5:5 pulldown gives you proper 24 fps video. Even though there now 5 frames instead of 1, all 5 frames are exactly the same.

 

[themisfit610]

Temporal interpolation sucks. It can help sports a bit, and other non 24p content, but for movies it totally destroys the motion characteristics of 24p film. It also introduces bizarre warping effects around the edges of fine motion, because interpolation can never be perfect.

It's still impressive that such things can be done in real time. Heck, we've been doing this with AviSynth for quite awhile now (MVTools' MVFlowFPS), but at only a few FPS for 1080p content.

A real 120hz panel on the other hand, is a wonderful thing!

Tearing and jitter are finally a thing of the past with these sets.

To be perfectly honest, 24p displayed on a 60hz screen isn't half bad if you have a good algorithm to handle the display. For example using Media Player Classic - Home Cinema with Haali Renderer and ReClock.

Anyone know if you connect one of these bad boys via HDMI to a PC - can you set 120hz refresh rate?

~MiSfit

 

[Aharami]

Originally posted by: gorcorps
Hmmm... this 'soap opera' effect is what I must have noticed on my friend's TV and hated. He was clicking around channels and landed on an HD broadcast of Tomorrow Never Dies. I told him it looked like it never went through final production and filters, and that during fast action sequences things almost looked like they were in fast forward for small chunks of time. It was very annoying and I couldn't believe he could watch it and not notice it.

thats one of the first things I noticed when I my got Samsung LN46A650. But it would only happen on some HD channels like TBS and TNT (the lower quality ones), whereas channels like NBC and ABC were fine. I always chalked it up to the channel. It bothers the hell out of me too, although I notice it less and less now. I guess I have become accustomed to it.

Anyways, it is too late to return this TV. Just gotta live with it

 

[Eug]

Originally posted by: Aharami
thats one of the first things I noticed when I my got Samsung LN46A650.

Anyways, it is too late to return this TV. Just gotta live with it

Can't you just turn off interpolation? Try doing that and seeing what it looks like. I believe it's called "Auto Motion Plus" on Samsungs.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: Aharami

Originally posted by: gorcorps
Hmmm... this 'soap opera' effect is what I must have noticed on my friend's TV and hated. He was clicking around channels and landed on an HD broadcast of Tomorrow Never Dies. I told him it looked like it never went through final production and filters, and that during fast action sequences things almost looked like they were in fast forward for small chunks of time. It was very annoying and I couldn't believe he could watch it and not notice it.

thats one of the first things I noticed when I my got Samsung LN46A650. But it would only happen on some HD channels like TBS and TNT (the lower quality ones), whereas channels like NBC and ABC were fine. I always chalked it up to the channel. It bothers the hell out of me too, although I notice it less and less now. I guess I have become accustomed to it.

Anyways, it is too late to return this TV. Just gotta live with it

Just turn it off....

 

[Crucial]

Originally posted by: PurdueRy

Originally posted by: Aharami

Originally posted by: gorcorps
Hmmm... this 'soap opera' effect is what I must have noticed on my friend's TV and hated. He was clicking around channels and landed on an HD broadcast of Tomorrow Never Dies. I told him it looked like it never went through final production and filters, and that during fast action sequences things almost looked like they were in fast forward for small chunks of time. It was very annoying and I couldn't believe he could watch it and not notice it.

thats one of the first things I noticed when I my got Samsung LN46A650. But it would only happen on some HD channels like TBS and TNT (the lower quality ones), whereas channels like NBC and ABC were fine. I always chalked it up to the channel. It bothers the hell out of me too, although I notice it less and less now. I guess I have become accustomed to it.

Anyways, it is too late to return this TV. Just gotta live with it

Just turn it off....

Listen to these people and don't return this awesome tv. I have the LN52A750 and you can definitely turn this feature off and it's not the 120hz that's causing it. You really should read your manual.

 

[jacc1234]

Isn't it great when people buy a 2k tv and then bitch because they don't know how to properly use it! :/