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GCN... Direct3D/DirectX 12?

destrekor

destrekor

Lifer
I'm seeing conflicting reports online, that or my Googlefu is rusty after drinks.

Does the GCN architecture, as found in the 290X or 295X2, support Direct3D 12.0, aka DirectX 12.0? Not just Mantle or what will be found in 11.3, but all of 12.0?
I'm not buying any GPU this year that won't support the upcoming API, so... you're help would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
 
Do you remember before DX11 came what kind of hardware was around?

Even the 5870, the first DX11 GPU became really useless for many DX11 games. Its going to take a few years for DX12 to hit mainstream in many games. By that time, hardware today = obsolete so it doesn't matter.
 
Hey, the 5870, especially the 2gb versions, really held their own for a long time. That card was a great value 😛 but I agree trying to "future proof" around DX versions doesn't seem like it's worthwhile because the horsepower probably won't be there to crank all the details anyway.
 
My impression is that it is still unknown except to Microsoft whether any of the gpus out or coming out this year fully support DX12. I think GCN is supposed to be compatible with DX12, but may or may not fully support all the features.
 
I'd argue that first GPU architecture to fully support the DX 11.3 feature set was none other than GCN ...

Typed UAV Loads was always capable in mantle with it's uniform buffer supporting full type conversions with R/W operations ...

Volume tiled resources is just partially resident textures in 3D and GCN does support 3D textures so support for VTR can be easily extended ...

Conservative rasterization can be performed in the geometry shader so there's no worries there ...

Raster ordered views is just a fancy way to rename Intel's pixelsync and the feature's name in OpenGL is Intel_fragment_shader_ordering which by the way GCN already supports so ROVs are already covered with GCN ...
 
The Direct3D 12 low level API? Yes.

The Direct3D feature level 12_0 feature set? No one knows for sure yet, as MS has not released the specification. However AFAIK GCN 1.0 and 1.1 do not support conservative rasterization, and you can pretty much guarantee that CR will be a 12_0 feature given past Microsoft statements.

Think Direct3D 11: D3D10 cards are "supported" by D3D11 in as much as you can write programs using the D3D11 API and have them work on D3D10 cards. However in order to do so, you must have a FL 10_0/10_1 rendering path available.
 
Seems only Maxwell(v2) supports it fully. Including DX11.3.

GCN is still reported as featurelevel 11.1 for GCN 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2. Kepler and Fermi is 11.0, Haswell 11.1 and Broadwell 11.2. Maxwell(v1 - 750/750TI)) I dont know.
 
I think the bottom line for me, as a gamer, is that it won't really matter. Most games for the next 5 years or more will use DX11.0-feature level as the basis, with some DX12 features (like the CPU-overhead reduction) thrown in optionally. Full DX12 hardware feature set will remain an added bonus for the occassional, heavily advertised stand-out Tech demo, I mean game, with no truly visible or palpable impact to the game and it's functionality/fun factor itself. Neither the XB1/PS4 has this DX12 hardware capability, but those consoles will be around for a long time.
 
Pinstripe said:
I think the bottom line for me, as a gamer, is that it won't really matter. Most games for the next 5 years or more will use DX11.0-feature level as the basis, with some DX12 features (like the CPU-overhead reduction) thrown in optionally. Full DX12 hardware feature set will remain an added bonus for the occassional, heavily advertised stand-out Tech demo, I mean game, with no truly visible or palpable impact to the game and it's functionality/fun factor itself. Neither the XB1/PS4 has this DX12 hardware capability, but those consoles will be around for a long time.
Click to expand...

MS basicly said, only the AAA games will use DX12 due to cost. While everyone else will mainly use DX11.3. But we have to see how that plans out. Sponsor money can be a big thing there.
 
I(We) don't know about GCN being compatible with DX11.3(which is a part of DX12 features set), but DX12 yes it supports.

GCN supports up to DX11.2 with the latest drivers, and Maxwell2(GM 2xx) oficially support DX11.2 and 11.3 feature sets.
 
SimianR said:
Hey, the 5870, especially the 2gb versions, really held their own for a long time. That card was a great value 😛 but I agree trying to "future proof" around DX versions doesn't seem like it's worthwhile because the horsepower probably won't be there to crank all the details anyway.
Click to expand...

That's obviously true if you don't want to turn down any settings.

But for people not upgrading that often, having the newer DirectX version is undeniably more "future proof". There have been more and more games that won't run on DX10/10.1 GPUs but will still run on DX11 GPUs with comparable power (for example HD 5770 vs 4870, GTS 450 vs GTX 260)
 
ShintaiDK said:
Seems only Maxwell(v2) supports it fully. Including DX11.3.

GCN is still reported as featurelevel 11.1 for GCN 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2. Kepler and Fermi is 11.0, Haswell 11.1 and Broadwell 11.2. Maxwell(v1 - 750/750TI)) I dont know.
Click to expand...

Why do you keep repeating this over and over again. You know better than the manufacturer?

"Based on preliminary DirectX 12 specifications as of July, 2014, AMD’s GCN-based products are expected to support DirectX 12 upon its release."
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/graphics/desktop/r9#

Until DX12 and Windows 10 comes out, and are tested by professionals, you cannot conclusively state that GCN or Kepler won't support DX12. Otherwise, you keep repeating your opinion which contradicts what even the manufacturer states.

Silverforce11 said:
Do you remember before DX11 came what kind of hardware was around?

Even the 5870, the first DX11 GPU became really useless for many DX11 games. Its going to take a few years for DX12 to hit mainstream in many games. By that time, hardware today = obsolete so it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...

This. Even after Windows 10 comes out, the adoption will take years and developers are unlikely to start making DX12 games from the ground-up, alienating 99% of PC gaming rigs. It'll be a long time before DX12 starts to matter at which point all the cards today will be slow. Some of the games being made for 2015-2016 are being worked on right now. and they have no choice but to make them in DX11. It's highly likely that there will be newer engine upgrades to DICE and CryEngine with DX12, etc. With the biggest draw of DX12 being a reduction in the CPU overhead, chances are a powerful overclocked i5/i7 4790K/5820K system is going to benefit a lot less from DX12 than something like an FX9370.

Spjut said:
That's obviously true if you don't want to turn down any settings.

But for people not upgrading that often, having the newer DirectX version is undeniably more "future proof". There have been more and more games that won't run on DX10/10.1 GPUs but will still run on DX11 GPUs with comparable power (for example HD 5770 vs 4870, GTS 450 vs GTX 260)
Click to expand...

That's not the same at all since MS stated that DX12 is backwards compatible with all DX11 videocards.

"While we are not yet ready to detail everything related to DirectX 12, we can share that we are working closely with all of our hardware partners to help ensure that most modern PC gaming hardware will work well with DirectX 12, including; NVIDIA's Maxwell, Kepler and Fermi-based GPUs, Intel's 4th generation (and newer) Core processors and AMD's Graphics Core Next (GCN) based GPUs."
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/new-graphics-cards-not-essential-for-directx-12/1100-6424846/

You do not need to worry with any of those GPUs that you'll fire up a DX12 game and it will say "hardware not supported" unless the developers incorporates such GPU demanding features in the game that only DX12 modern cards would be powerful enough to run the game in the first place. So in essence it's possible that current gen DX11 cards won't be supported by virtue of being too slow. It's expected that in 5 years or something you will probably see DX12 videocard in the minimum specs simply because DX12 will be ubiquitous.
 
Last edited:
Pinstripe said:
I think the bottom line for me, as a gamer, is that it won't really matter. Most games for the next 5 years or more will use DX11.0-feature level as the basis, with some DX12 features (like the CPU-overhead reduction) thrown in optionally. Full DX12 hardware feature set will remain an added bonus for the occassional, heavily advertised stand-out Tech demo, I mean game, with no truly visible or palpable impact to the game and it's functionality/fun factor itself. Neither the XB1/PS4 has this DX12 hardware capability, but those consoles will be around for a long time.
Click to expand...

I kind of doubt this since I am under the impression Xbox One was built with DX12 in mind, and several major game engines will support it at windows 10 launch. Plus the vast majority of PC gamers who buy lots of games run win 7 & 8 and will get free upgrade to windows 10.
 
TechFan1 said:
I kind of doubt this since I am under the impression Xbox One was built with DX12 in mind, and several major game engines will support it at windows 10 launch. Plus the vast majority of PC gamers who buy lots of games run win 7 & 8 and will get free upgrade to windows 10.
Click to expand...

Right, it doesn't run a full DX12 but I've seen it reported that some of the features to reduce overhead in DX12 come directly from the console and that DX12 makes it pretty easy to make a game on both PC and XB1.
 
TechFan1 said:
I kind of doubt this since I am under the impression Xbox One was built with DX12 in mind, and several major game engines will support it at windows 10 launch. Plus the vast majority of PC gamers who buy lots of games run win 7 & 8 and will get free upgrade to windows 10.
Click to expand...

Ya, it's amazing how some people insinuate that DX12 won't run on anything but Maxwell but yesterday MS stated that it will work on GCN in the Xbox One:

"DX12 Will Affect Xbox One Provided Devs Use It
Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/aaron-greenberg-dx12-will-affect-xbox-one-provided-devs-use-it-shares-updates-on-fable-legends#BfucVjQKcPkFCi2L.99"

AMD's own slides on DX12 and GCN.

amd-direct3d-12-645x333.jpg
 
Last edited:
RussianSensation said:
That's not the same at all since MS stated that DX12 is backwards compatible with all DX11 videocards.

"While we are not yet ready to detail everything related to DirectX 12, we can share that we are working closely with all of our hardware partners to help ensure that most modern PC gaming hardware will work well with DirectX 12, including; NVIDIA's Maxwell, Kepler and Fermi-based GPUs, Intel's 4th generation (and newer) Core processors and AMD's Graphics Core Next (GCN) based GPUs."
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/new-graphics-cards-not-essential-for-directx-12/1100-6424846/

You do not need to worry with any of those GPUs that you'll fire up a DX12 game and it will say "hardware not supported" unless the developers incorporates such GPU demanding features in the game that only DX12 modern cards would be powerful enough to run the game in the first place. So in essence it's possible that current gen DX11 cards won't be supported by virtue of being too slow. It's expected that in 5 years or something you will probably see DX12 videocard in the minimum specs simply because DX12 will be ubiquitous.
Click to expand...


I don't see in what way this is different from the DX11 API and its backwards compatibility with DX9 and DX10/10.1.
 
ThatBuzzkiller said:
I'd argue that first GPU architecture to fully support the DX 11.3 feature set was none other than GCN ...

Typed UAV Loads was always capable in mantle with it's uniform buffer supporting full type conversions with R/W operations ...

Volume tiled resources is just partially resident textures in 3D and GCN does support 3D textures so support for VTR can be easily extended ...

Conservative rasterization can be performed in the geometry shader so there's no worries there ...

Raster ordered views is just a fancy way to rename Intel's pixelsync and the feature's name in OpenGL is Intel_fragment_shader_ordering which by the way GCN already supports so ROVs are already covered with GCN ...
Click to expand...

So hilarious if HD 7970 turns out to be the first fully DX12 capable GPU released.

:awe:
 
RussianSensation said:
Ya, it's amazing how some people insinuate that DX12 won't run on anything but Maxwell but yesterday MS stated that it will work on GCN in the Xbox One:

"DX12 Will Affect Xbox One Provided Devs Use It
Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/aaron-greenberg-dx12-will-affect-xbox-one-provided-devs-use-it-shares-updates-on-fable-legends#BfucVjQKcPkFCi2L.99"

AMD's own slides on DX12 and GCN.

amd-direct3d-12-645x333.jpg
Click to expand...

Sure AMD will support the vast majority of DX 12. However it would not be impossible, and I would believe it to be a shame, if microsoft did not try to push new hardware features in DX 12 that gcn may or may not support.

It is quite likely that full hardware DX 12 will call for features that are not currently on the market at this time.
 
RussianSensation said:
Why do you keep repeating this over and over again. You know better than the manufacturer?

"Based on preliminary DirectX 12 specifications as of July, 2014, AMD’s GCN-based products are expected to support DirectX 12 upon its release."
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/graphics/desktop/r9#

Until DX12 and Windows 10 comes out, and are tested by professionals, you cannot conclusively state that GCN or Kepler won't support DX12. Otherwise, you keep repeating your opinion which contradicts what even the manufacturer states.
Click to expand...

You are confused by the 2 DX12 support types. One is the API support, the other is the feature level support that is also part of DX11.3.
 
Enigmoid said:
Sure AMD will support the vast majority of DX 12. However it would not be impossible, and I would believe it to be a shame, if microsoft did not try to push new hardware features in DX 12 that gcn may or may not support.

It is quite likely that full hardware DX 12 will call for features that are not currently on the market at this time.
Click to expand...

If you're going to be particular about it, then AMD has a better track record than Nvidia since the days of the DX10 (remember DX10.1???). 2900 was the first card to support DX10.1 iirc. Then look at DX11 support, and you will see that it was also not supported in its entirety by Nvidia. I can't speak about 9xx series, but it is true for cards prior. Last i heard, DX12 was also to be supported as such by Nvidia.

I have read nothing to the effect that MS may consider gimping DX12 implementation owing to failure on AMD's part, nowhere but this thread. If anything, i expect the upcoming GCN cards to be fully compliant with DX12, as were previous AMD cards with existing tech.
 
MSFT already said that current cards like GCN, can run DX12, but that doesn't mean they can run all features of DX12. To analogize, a DX10 card might be compatible with a game written for DX11, but the DX10 card can't do tessellation. That's a DX11 feature the card can't handle. Same thing for DX12 and current-generation DX11 cards.
 
RussianSensation said:
Ya, it's amazing how some people insinuate that DX12 won't run on anything but Maxwell but yesterday MS stated that it will work on GCN in the Xbox One:

"DX12 Will Affect Xbox One Provided Devs Use It
Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/aaron-greenberg-dx12-will-affect-xbox-one-provided-devs-use-it-shares-updates-on-fable-legends#BfucVjQKcPkFCi2L.99"

AMD's own slides on DX12 and GCN.

amd-direct3d-12-645x333.jpg
Click to expand...

They use a custom API based on DX12. It isn't DX12 itself.
 
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