Gates bashes NATO

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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America's military alliance with Europe - the cornerstone of U.S. security policy for six decades - faces a "dim, if not dismal" future, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Friday in a blunt valedictory address.

LINK

Excerpts:

Gates has made no secret of his frustration with NATO bureaucracy and the huge restrictions many European governments placed on their military participation in the Afghanistan war. He ruffled NATO feathers early in his tenure with a direct challenge to contribute more front-line troops that yielded few contributions.

Even so, Gates' assessment Friday that NATO is falling down on its obligations and foisting too much of the hard work on the U.S. was unusually harsh and unvarnished. He said both of NATO's main military operations now - Afghanistan and Libya - point up weaknesses and failures within the alliance.

"The blunt reality is that there will be dwindling appetite and patience in the U.S. Congress - and in the American body politic writ large - to expend increasingly precious funds on behalf of nations that are apparently unwilling to devote the necessary resources or make the necessary changes to be serious and capable partners in their own defense," he said.

Without naming names, he blasted allies who are "willing and eager for American taxpayers to assume the growing security burden left by reductions in European defense budgets."

The U.S. has tens of thousands of troops based in Europe, not to stand guard against invasion but to train with European forces and promote what for decades has been lacking: the ability of the Europeans to go to war alongside the U.S. in a coherent way.

The war in Afghanistan, which is being conducted under NATO auspices, is a prime example of U.S. frustration at European inability to provide the required resources.

"Despite more than 2 million troops in uniform, not counting the U.S. military, NATO has struggled, at times desperately, to sustain a deployment of 25,000 to 45,000 troops, not just in boots on the ground, but in crucial support assets such as helicopters, transport aircraft, maintenance, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, and much more," Gates said.

But reluctance of some European nations to expand defense budgets and take on direct combat has created what amounts to a two-tier alliance: the U.S. military at one level and the rest of NATO on a lower, almost irrelevant plane.

"While every alliance member voted for the Libya mission, less than half have participated, and fewer than a third have been willing to participate in the strike mission," he said. "Frankly, many of those allies sitting on the sidelines do so not because they do not want to participate, but simply because they can't. The military capabilities simply aren't there."



Gate's speaks the truth, and many of those in the US military know it well. The death of European defense is real. For years people have been asking the question, "Who will defend Europe?" and now the 20-year answer is, "Not Europe." With no perceived territorial threats, the continent does not have the means to defend itself, and that is making their "contribution" to NATO and world security less than spectacular. Most European countries have downsized their militaries into mere shadows of their Cold War selves, and operate more as armed social workers than anything.

The way many European countries have cashed in on their peace dividend is staggering. The International Institute for Strategic Studies Military Balance from 1990 and 2010, most European countries now have forces less than half the size they had at the end of the Cold War, and those forces are trending downward. These dramatic declines should force us to ask whether they are capable partners for the US or a drain.

Our NATO allies have the ability to reverse these trends and instead produce a viable partnership. Otherwise, as Gates said, this could spell the demise of NATO.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
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He is 100% correct. Most of our "allies" sit back and let us spend the money and resources. Our close allies who are willing to help us (UK), are so far behind with their military and armaments it is laughable.

Sad.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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With a SEC of Defense as crazy as Dumfeld or Gates, why should any rational Nato partner waste their blood and treasure trying to fight a stupid war. Led by an idiot of the first order.

Maybe ole Gates needs to get a clue, he is the stupid one not accomplishing anything.

And that the Nato alliance is still needed, but a dummy like Gates can not be a leader as the rest of Nato votes to say, Robert, you are out of your pea picking mind, we are not going to follow your stupidity.

One day the USA may have a smarter Sec of defense, but our last two have been real losers. Ego manics unaware of their own stupidity, and worse yet, incapable of learning a damn thing from their past mistakes.

Such people always need a scapegoat, and Gate's now chooses Nato.

It could not possibly be the fault of Gate's, if you don't believe me just ask Robert Gates.

Ego and honor satisfied, Gates can now go into retirement, but in all likely hood, the judgement of history is not going to be very fine regarding his tenure.
 
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wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
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Europe is just ahead of the curve on this one. The US military is equal to the next six or seven largest in the world combined and with the economy in the toilet we can't possibly keep that up. Hence the rush by Europe to kick Gaddafi's ass before the shit hits the fan. One last threat to deal with before the US possibly implodes. If Europe comes out in decent shape maybe they'll buy some of weapons from us at a steep discount. Then we'll be glad they didn't build up their military more.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
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europe is like 1/2 muslim why would they attack there brothers?
 

gevorg

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2004
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NATO became outdated after the end of Cold War. The Warsaw Pact is gone. Get rid of NATO too, or at least reform it to address modern issues.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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It's long past time to withdraw US forces from Europe. They have been sucking on the US military teat for far too long now. Time to leave them to their own devices. I have little doubt it wouldn't be long before they fuck themselves nine ways from Sunday.

Maybe they need that kind of eye opener?
 

Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
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Sour grapes from a warmonger who senses the imminent bankruptcy. I wonder if the troops who will suddenly be discharged in unemployment will even want to come back to the greatest nation in the world wallowing in debt with no social safety nets.

When this country falls apart, watch those who supported the troops most vocally be the first to stab them in the back.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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europe is like 1/2 muslim why would they attack there brothers?
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Gotta love Zebo, he is Hitler on steroids. As Zebo says all de worlds woes will be solved if we kill all Muslims. For proof of that see Zebo past posts. At least Hitler scaled back his goals to less than 12-14 million Jews, and even then fell short. But Zebo now wants to kill a whole 1.4 billion in his new holocaust.

Please please Zebo, tell us how to do it. How many gas ovens will it take, please submit a budget. Or should we just arm you with a bunch of pork coated bullets because you volunteer to do the job all by your self.

But let us do the math, if you can kill a Muslim every second, and there are only some 31 million seconds in a year, it will only take you 45 years to get all 1.4 billion.

Or maybe you can grow a brain, there are a majority of fine people in every religion on earth. But all it takes is a few jerks to screw the pooch and get everyone at each others throat.
 
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Sep 12, 2004
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When this country falls apart, watch those who supported the troops most vocally be the first to stab them in the back.
When this country doesn't fall apart I'll be laughing at those who have been predicting such a thing for at least the last few decades.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
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Europe is just ahead of the curve on this one. The US military is equal to the next six or seven largest in the world combined and with the economy in the toilet we can't possibly keep that up. Hence the rush by Europe to kick Gaddafi's ass before the shit hits the fan. One last threat to deal with before the US possibly implodes. If Europe comes out in decent shape maybe they'll buy some of weapons from us at a steep discount. Then we'll be glad they didn't build up their military more.

Maybe you're right... Europe's plan is to continue having the US subsidize their security and interests until we're bankrupt, then swoop in and regain their former glory!

American taxpayers provide half of the world's military spending, while our share of the global economy has fallen to less than one quarter. It isn't realistic to expect 5 percent of the world's population to bear these costs indefinitely. Gates seems to think that Europe should step up -and they SHOULD- but that doesn't seem likely.

As he told graduates at Notre Dame: "Make no mistake, the ultimate guarantee against the success of aggressors, dictators, and terrorists in the 21st century, as in the 20th, is hard power - the size, strength and global reach of the United States military." He isn't saying that out of warrior bravado, he's stating the cold hard reality that we cannot rely on other countries to do more - or anything, really - to help the US or even defend themselves and their interests on there own.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Europe is building its social utopia on our defense dollars.

We need to cut our defense spending and one of the first places we should cut it is in providing defense to other first world countries who should be able to pay for their own defense.
 

schneiderguy

Lifer
Jun 26, 2006
10,801
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Europe is building its social utopia on our defense dollars.

We need to cut our defense spending and one of the first places we should cut it is in providing defense to other first world countries who should be able to pay for their own defense.

:thumbsup:

Anyone want to guess how long it will take for Europe to go back to blowing each other up after we leave? :whiste:
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
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With a SEC of Defense as crazy as Dumfeld or Gates, why should any rational Nato partner waste their blood and treasure trying to fight a stupid war. Led by an idiot of the first order.

Maybe ole Gates needs to get a clue, he is the stupid one not accomplishing anything.

And that the Nato alliance is still needed, but a dummy like Gates can not be a leader as the rest of Nato votes to say, Robert, you are out of your pea picking mind, we are not going to follow your stupidity.

One day the USA may have a smarter Sec of defense, but our last two have been real losers. Ego manics unaware of their own stupidity, and worse yet, incapable of learning a damn thing from their past mistakes.

Such people always need a scapegoat, and Gate's now chooses Nato.

It could not possibly be the fault of Gate's, if you don't believe me just ask Robert Gates.

Ego and honor satisfied, Gates can now go into retirement, but in all likely hood, the judgement of history is not going to be very fine regarding his tenure.


you're such a moronic hack. US has no military interest in being in libyia now and yet if they didn't agree to lead the inital assualt europe never would have gone in. and lets not even discuss how fucked up your remaining assessment on gates is.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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When this country doesn't fall apart I'll be laughing at those who have been predicting such a thing for at least the last few decades.
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Don't be a fool chicken man, maybe our country did not fall apart after Vietnam but it was certainly diminished, as for our Vietnam Vets, we treated them like shit. Its not any better for the Vets of Afghanistan and Iraq, but we would rather blame them than our fool Presidents.

They did not deliver victory like our WW2 vets, so we kick them in the teeth as expensive liabilities instead.

If you do not feel a sense of shame, I will try to make up for your deficiency.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
Maybe you're right... Europe's plan is to continue having the US subsidize their security and interests until we're bankrupt, then swoop in and regain their former glory!


Its a little early to be speculating about reclaiming glory days. At this point its similar to a large monopoly like Microsoft or Intel desperately needing to restructure. If you are the smaller competition you don't lend them a helping hand. If anything you make the transition more expensive for them, save your money, and wait to see if you can buy some of their assets at rock bottom prices.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Don't be a fool chicken man, maybe our country did not fall apart after Vietnam but it was certainly diminished, as for our Vietnam Vets, we treated them like shit. Its not any better for the Vets of Afghanistan and Iraq, but we would rather blame them than our fool Presidents.

They did not deliver victory like our WW2 vets, so we kick them in the teeth as expensive liabilities instead.

If you do not feel a sense of shame, I will try to make up for your deficiency.
What does that have to do with the US falling apart? fyi, we didn't self-destruct after Vietnam. The stupid hippies who felt otherwise at the time were proved wrong.

I am constantly amazed at those in here who so fervently desire thier own destruction. The fools in this forum who would cut off their nose to spite their own face never cease to amaze me.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,562
3
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As long as we're the world's sole superpower, we will never fully withdraw from Europe. Our bases there provide supply/transportation to other regions.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
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As long as we're the world's sole superpower, we will never fully withdraw from Europe. Our bases there provide supply/transportation to other regions.

All the more reason for Europe to let us keep footing as much of the bill as possible. If we don't defend them we loose those bases.
 
May 11, 2008
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I just watched a movie where 2 characters where in discussion :

I think it fits to ask this question from a fictional story line when looking at all what has happened so far in the US and parts of the western world :

Character 1 : " What happened with the American dream ? "
Character 2 : "You are looking at it..."

What really did happen ? Why has healthy competition turned into a slit throat competition ? What happened to honor and gentlemen agreements ? Why is making a quick buck to spend quickly more important then long term earning together with long term spending ? Why is living in the now all that is important to so many people who do not have to fear for their lives ? Who have enough to eat ? Who have a choice how to experience and fill their day ? Why do so many who do not have to, live for today and only start thinking about tomorrow when tomorrow inevitably turns into today ?

What is this "cash in now" mentality ?
 

freegeeks

Diamond Member
May 7, 2001
5,460
1
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ultimate defense is nuclear weapons, the fool who tries to invade Europe will face 500+ British and French ICBM and ultimate destruction. Europe certainly lacks in conventional capabilities but who cares if you can destroy even a superpower if needed.
 

pooey

Junior Member
Jan 31, 2011
2
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As a European I would like to thank the Americans for defending us from the 'global threat' that stems from the pointless wars they've created