Throckmorton
Lifer
- Aug 23, 2007
- 16,830
- 3
- 0
I make way below the median income, and I won't have any sympathy for any Hillary supporters when she (or McCain) gets elected and we end up with 8 more years of shit just so you could MAYBE save $30 over 3 months of 2008
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
1) McCain came up with this first, last time I checked he's heading the Republican party ticket, and despite being pro-life, pro-war, and holding a host of other conservative positions, some nuts like referring to him as a liberal
2) polls indicate republican voters are 50/50 on the benefits of a gas tax holiday, while a slight majority of democratic voters feel the gas tax holiday is a bad idea.
So your sentiment is incorrect in just about every possible way.
rchiu, I applaud your sticking up for the poor, but I don't see this as the battle on which to do it.
Your point is right on about the importance of compassion for the poor (and that includes attacking some of the false mythology the better off can have).
But not every program to give $30 to the poor is a good program. That makes the poor easy to manipulate, if they think so.
Look at how Bush fooled people into supporting his tax cuts for the rich - he buried it in a slogan about 'everyone gets a cut', while hiding that for a large group the average cut was $4, but for his base, it was huge, and the people who got $4 will pay - or their children will pay - far more for this subsidy for the rich. Look at how Bush fooled people into the givewaway to big Pharma by hiding it in a 'compassionate drug program' that was great for drug companies selling at list prices to the government, but not so good for taxpayers.
People who are poorer need to get sharper about who really represents their interests. If they buy into the first shiny object they're offered, they'll get used.
Well that all depends on how the program is implemented isn't it. If like Hillary said she will be able to finance it with tax from oil company and not one cent from us, then I only see benefit and not issue with it. And what I like about Hillary is that she gets people are suffering right the heck NOW with gas and food prices all hitting record, and at the same time the economy is slowing, job is disappearing, the wage probably gonna get hit soon or later too. She is taking action that will see immediate result, maybe not huge, but it is a start.
I understand all the supply and demand mumbo jumbo those economist talk about, I have an MBA for god's sake and I graduated with honor too. But the problem is economists rarely deal with social issue, and their solutions try to solve long term, macro problem. Not to say those solutions are not good, but with the economic condition today, you need immediate actions, TOGETHER with the long term solutions. Which if you read Hillary's proposal, she does mention both approaches, but media tend to focus on the short term solution only for reason I am sure everyone can guess.
I am smart and educated enough to see through people's b.s. both politicians' and economists'. What I see from Hillary is good, she is taking action to give middle, lower class people immediate relief, unlike the other candidate. And I prefer to judge her on the merit of her accomplishment. if she is actually given a chance to implement her own proposal but either hand the profit to the oil company, or unable to tax the oil company like she said, I will criticize her like everyone else here.
But I am not gonna criticize her on a proposal that is intended to provide immediate help to those needed, and act like just because so and so dollar isn't much for me, it isn't much for everyone else too.
I've seen this pop up a few times now in this thread and I'm genuinely curious.. where ARE these people for whom 30$ over 3 months is a big deal? Honestly.. panhandlers make about that much in a single day... panhandlers!! ONE DAY
It seems really obvious to me, and I'm an idiot, that this gas tax holiday is nothing more than election year fuckery intended to guile the uninformed into voting a certain way.
I think I'm more upset with the people who fall for this kind of shit than I am with those who exploit the first group.
Please. This move is nothing but a "right pocket, left pocket" shell game. She is doing nothing more than pandering to the middle class, the same as Bush did with his "Ownership society" and "taxbreak generates wealth" bullshit. She is using a downturning economy for her own benefit by giving an obviously bullshit "benefit".
Sorry bud, but you're being hoodwinked on this one if you think this is anything but pure shillery.
What *WILL* help people is to let them take their licks, go through a recession, pay off their bills, use fuel efficient cars, learn their lesson and become stronger.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
The claim is about $28 (not sure the time frame) and some woman on tv said that hillary wanted to give that to them and obama not. I'm thinking, damn, if $28 is really that important that you'd vote for a person over it, please don't vote. Also, please pick up another shift at walmart, they are still filling spots for nights.
The part I love the most is cutting the price, maybe, thus encouraging consumption, so that we can lessen our dependency on oil...
It's pure pandering and distraction, anyway... a bigger humjob than the tax rebates... Bread and circuses for everybody!
Anybody willing to venture what sort of chance there really is of such a proposal making it into law before the end of the summer? Or the chances of GWB signing any bill that raises taxes on Big Oil? Or the chances of actually seeing any meaningful price reduction at the pumps?
Zero, zip, nada, nothing, nyet- it's the same in any language.
It's pure pandering and distraction, anyway... a bigger humjob than the tax rebates... Bread and circuses for everybody!
Anybody willing to venture what sort of chance there really is of such a proposal making it into law before the end of the summer? Or the chances of GWB signing any bill that raises taxes on Big Oil? Or the chances of actually seeing any meaningful price reduction at the pumps?
Zero, zip, nada, nothing, nyet- it's the same in any language.
Heh, an MBA holder that feels he understands "supply and demand mumbo jumbo" better than people with PHDs in the field of Economics. That's rich.
It all depends, to counter a few economists who are obviously against the mainstream could be correct. However, to counter almost all economists and claim to be correct, because a politician says so, is horribly wrong. Personally, I think rchiu is completely wrong.
It's amazing that people are willing to sell their votes for $30. What's even worse is that they are going to end up paying that $30 one way or another.
If gas companies pay it, they end up passing on the cost, paying less taxes, or generating less wealth in the US. All of which ends up being passed on to consumers.
Wealth is a finite resource in this case, you're choice of allocation is important, but essentially is the same. You draw from the same bucket, how you allocate that bucket is different, but in the end, it's always the same bucket of wealth.
Instead of encouraging change, by taking the money she claims to "give back" to consumers, to invest it in alternative energy, that might actually create wealth in the future, she merely reallocates it. In the end it becomes wealth wasted and eventually more debt borrowed from China. All of which requires interest costs and inefficient allocation.
It is vote shilling pandering bullshit at it's best and it's pathetic any educated American would believe such crap.
Don't take me wrong LK, I respect MBAs and I'm not saying that they're not to be listened to. It was just funny that rchiu brought up the fact that he has an MBA, then simplified Microeconomics core principles to mumbo jumbo, then claimed that the economists that have studied this issue (most of which are highly reputable economists at highly respected institutions) are only focused on macroeconomics and therefore would not have the right frame of mind to analyze this situation, and then used his sheer love for Hillary's incredible kindness and intellect to guide his judgment that people who are against this measure must be elitist. I mean, how can you not be an elitist and not support such a well thought out, well planned, highly consulted plan of action like a gas holiday tax. Honestly.
But, I guess that's the attack line nowadays. If one devotes their time to study something for 6 years and then continues on to teach the subject and write peer reviewed journals on that subject and then comments about issues directly pertaining to it, they're most likely elitist. Gotcha.
I agree completely, I didn't take your post as anything but correct logic, I was just playing devils advocate a tiny bit, then agreeing with the rest
. $28 is pretty cheap for a vote.right
i'm a broke college student with 50 grand in debt and i'm an elitist huh? I can sure tell you that my broke ass is not going to be impacted by this at all.
You should really return that MBA because i don't think you got much out of it.
further lulz at the MBA calling the poor folk in this thread ivy tower intellectuals and junk.
rchiu, the total savings is not a meaningful number if you don't take into account the time period over which it occurred. For a certain amount of savings to be relevant it should be significant when compared to something like the amount of money a person spends over the time period during which the savings occurred. If someone is earning 5k or so over the summer (excluding taxes) and spends most of that income (as a person earning that much would) then an extra $30 is not very significant.
lupi
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2001
- 32,539
- 260
- 126
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
who wants to drive on good roads anyways?
When you find some let me know. My area is at least 30 years behind in infrastructure development. It was rather nice this year though to have to pass some nice non-elected regional transportation authorities to raise taxes at their discretion to projects. Was even nicer when the courts banned them for taxation without representation.
- Oct 30, 2000
- 42,591
- 5
- 0
$30 over a two month period * 75 million vehicles (estimated) means a load of Federal highway funds will be unavailable for road & bridge repair. (~$2.5Billion)
Most major roads are from 75-90% Federal funds paid for in terms of repairs.
In otherwords, look at all the projects for your state and discard 20% of them if all are funded equally, or toss 35% of the lowest priority items
Most major roads are from 75-90% Federal funds paid for in terms of repairs.
In otherwords, look at all the projects for your state and discard 20% of them if all are funded equally, or toss 35% of the lowest priority items
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