Gaming will never be the same

[flexy]

For years already i dreamed of the halfway "affordable" gaming set-up, and up-to now all my "dreams" were either not realized (because the technique was just not available)...or they were in ranges far beyond of any reasonable budget.

The last few days i did some research in regards to 3D and display techniques, and this covered all the usual techniques like VR googles, planar 3d LCD setups, anaglyph (red/blue glasses) setups. I also played around with the latest stereo drives by Nvidia (174.16).

Here my latest "findings"....and i can guarantee that this is not "science fiction" but everyone can do this *now*, assuming you are willing to spend a "reasonable" amount of money. I am not talking about 64.000+ or more like i saw in the price lists of certain VR google manufacturers.

The set-up i will introduce here will blow AWAY all and any current gaming-setups in terms of immersion and realism, it will also blow away $100K+ "real" VR 3D setups.

My finding is that the current best and most promising 3D technology is attained by the relatively new DLP plasma (and rear projection) displays by Samsung and Mitsubishi.
http://product.samsung.com/dlp3d/

Samsung just came out with a new series of 50" big screen HDTV TVs, which, amongst the fact that people rave abbout their quality have a very significant feature, which is called "3D Ready".

This "3D Ready" feature is done by the DLP processor in those new TVs which allows using 3d shutter glasses at fast speed, i am talking about 60hz/eye. (120hz) This means that "basically" a flickering effect as in older shutter techniqes using monitors etc. does not exist anymore.

There are already cheap 3d glasses avbailable for those TVs, either get them seperately, they're about $100. edimensional.com also sells glasses specifically for those "3D" TVs (Samsung, Mitsu)
http://edimensional.com/produc...ath=21&products_id=127


I also took a quick glance (using a hexeditor!) into the new Nvidia stereo drivers, and i see text entries in regards to those Sammy/Mitsu 3D DLP TVs in the drivers. i assume those drivers have features which are not enabled (yet), or the support for those DLP 3D displays will be added in the very future. Maybe there is also a way o activate those "hidden" features in the new NV stereo drivers and those DLPs are already supported, i dont know.

Anyway...using the alreay existing 3d shutter glasses or those from edimensional, this set-up should already work, with drivers and everything!

The "dream" cyber-space setup which will change the gaming world therefore will consist of a

* 50" Big "3D Ready" DLP HDTV by Samsung which is currently available at approx $1200-$1300
* set of shutter glasses approx $100

An "extreme cyber setup" with the big screen on the desk (it would *barely* fit on mine) would mean that the desk/view is literally filled out by the screen, with the screen 128cm (51") wide and 80cm (32") high, basically covering all of your view and beyond.
You would literally need to turn your head, say, to read the chat messages in World of Warcraft. (This is already a problem on my current 22"

Now the DLP is connected to your PC via HDMI to a reasonable fast card, say Geforce 8800 or better.

Using the simple available shutter glasses will transform the majority of Direct3d and Opengl games and apps in TRUE 3D. I am talking about colors (no anaglyph BS) and without any flickering or ghosting.

This set-up would beat any currently available VR/3D setup in terms of "field of view" and immersion....and it only costs a fraction of a fraction of what currently half-way reasonable VR goggles go for.

You would play a game and literally "be inside" the game

This is especially interesting if you're in the market for a big screen TV already (as i am)..so i am itching a lot to get me this 50" DLP since all other 3D realizations (planar LCDs using halfway mirrors.....), shutters with low frequency, anaglyph etc..etc. are nonsense.
You would get your own private IMAX and gaming will never be the same

G.

Further Info:

http://www.dlp.com/hdtv/3-d_dlp_hdtv.aspx


Notes...on the Texas Instruments site there they sell those glasses as well as specific drivers, this includes most currently popular games.
http://www.ddd.com/cart/home.php?cat=14
This is proof that it works already, although its odd to sell drivers on a "per game" basis...

However, it is to expect that 3rd party glasses (eg,. by edimensional) AND the Nvidia drivers will have (or already have) their own "universal" drivers which will generally work using those displays.
I just emailed edimensional and asked how this works by purchasing their glasses and how compatible their drivers are.

Edit2:

I did quick research and found quickly

http://forums.nvidia.com/lofiv.../index.php?t44139.html

where there's already "hacks" to use the 3D DLPs using a version of Nvidia's drivers without the need of a "pay per driver" basis or "special drivers".
The important aspect is that it works, independently from the fact that some companies now try to milk that new market by selling 3d game-drivers for $4.99/game.

or

http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=632

 

[darkxknight]

don't know how it'll workout EXACTly, but GL

 

[undeclared]

Damn, I want a Samsung DLP now.. but how much are replacement bulbs and how long do they last?

I was already in the market for an HDTV, though I hate the problems associated with DLPs..

Are these the LED DLP type?

 

[flexy]

I am definitly getting one of those now, i was just talking to my wife (she is also a big gamer for "permission".
The thought of playing x-plane, FSX or WoW on this thing in full 3d makes me want to *** myself, seriously.

Will probably put the TV on a moveable stand, so i can roll it to my desk where it serves as a giant monitor..and then just roll it over when we watch movies at night

xt: The particular model for me (after i moved back to germany ) is a PLASMA, so i assume the bulb-issue doesnt apply? I am getting a little confused since the us line-up is a different one compared to here.
I know there are the other kinds which are "3d ready" which Samsung sells in the states which are rear-projection...(they did not sell them here)..but they should also have the plasmas now. Just look on the samsung site.
Here in Germany they're so new (but already in stock)...there is not even information about those TVs on the German samsung site, although i found it on the Austrian samsung site.
The "3d ready" parts are available since March in the states, AFAIK.

Here some more info about the 3D plasmas in the US:

http://www.eetasia.com/ART_880...480700_NT_b7a9c709.HTM

(darn hotlinking...here the text

-------------------------------------------

A new way to watch movies and games in high definition has been introduced by Samsung Electronics in its first 3D-ready Plasma HDTVs. The Series 4 450 plasma HDTVs enable consumers to have an interactive 3D experience for enjoying a wide range of content, including movies, video games and Web content.

Beyond 3D functionality, the Series 4 450 provides a superior HD 720p picture for traditional home entertainment viewing.

According to John Revie, senior VP of visual display marketing at Samsung Electronics, "The Samsung Series 4 450 Plasma responds to the demands of consumers looking for new and innovative ways to enjoy multimedia entertainment at home. The 3D capability of these new displays will allow our users to enjoy the broad range of exciting 3D content already available, as well as the large volume of 3D entertainment slated to become available in the near future."

Working with a PC
When combined with an appropriate PC and 3D Accessory Kit (both sold separately), the Series 4 450 Plasma can showcase movies, games and more like never before in clear, lifelike 3D, right at home. Currently, 3D technology has already begun to draw serious interest from the film industry. A number of animated and live-action 3D titles are already available to consumers and major Hollywood directors are currently working on a growing number of 3D films. Emphasis on the new format has led to an expected rise in the number of 3D-capable cinemas across the country, and thus an expected increase in 3D titles available for home viewing. The interest extends to the PC gaming community as well, with 3D games and content expected from a variety of renowned software makers.

The Series 4 450 Plasma also features crisp HD 720p resolution, a dynamic contrast ratio of up to 1,000,000:1 for deep blacks and bright whites, and rich, 18bit color processing for stunning picture quality time and again. Samsung's FilterBright anti-glare screen technology works to maintain a clear picture regardless of a room's external lighting. Three different enhancement modes (Sports, Cinema and Game) improve audio and video processing of different content, making the Series 4 450 Series a perfect choice for the passionate movie buff, the most enthusiastic sports fan, and the hardcore gamer.

Hidden, down-firing speakers combine with SRS TruSurround XT processing to provide the Series 4 450 Series an added touch of stylish design while creating deeper, richer sound levels.

With user convenience and home theater versatility in mind, the 450 Series comes equipped with three (1 side, 2 rear) HDMI-CEC connections (Anynet+) to control the latest home theater products using a single remote. A PC input is available to enjoy the latest content on a larger, theater-like display.

Going beyond picture quality and a variety of features, the Series 4 450 Plasma is designed with a piano black and silver bottom decor, and a slim bezel finished with soft, rounded edges. The resulting sleek design adds class and grace to most any space, giving consumers a HDTV that is aesthetically appealing, even when it is turned off.

The Series 4 450 3D Ready Plasma is available now. The 42-inch PN42A450 is priced at $1,199; the 50-inch PN50A450 is priced at $1,699.

- Dennis Barker
Digital TV Designline

 

[IcePickFreak]

Yeah I came across this a bit ago too when I was shopping for a hdtv. From what I've gathered, it's still kinda an in the works thing and it works great for some things and mediocre for others. It was the topic of discussion on a home theater site talking about Samsungs btw. There were even a few people that got to try it out at trade shows etc, and the consensus seemed to be that it's hit or miss for gaming in that some looked good while on others it didn't work quite as good. However, none of them ever said it looked worse or anything. They all agreed though that static images (pictures etc) looked amazing so it could be a sign of things to come. In the end I ended up with a Sammy 550 series plasma which is the 1080p version, which unfortunately isn't 3D capable.. but I will say that I am very happy with the set and picture quality is amazing. (I know this isn't a home theater site but I'm still half expecting someone to come in and boast about superior blacks on Pioneer Kuros)

 

[flexy]

IPF, thanks for reply. The fact that those TVs are great for watching movies etc just tops the cake. Dont they even do "real 24p" for movies or soemthing? Btw. how is the sound?

From what i read, there are so many other 3D solutions, but (even if this might have flaws still) the DLP solution seems to be superior.
Forget headsets for $1400 which only have 800x600 and only a field of view of 40degrees. (I am not talking about VR headsets for 60k and up, i am talking about consumer grade 3d stuff

Such a monitor/HDTV alone would be killer just for its size..so i can only barely imagine how it would look with functional 3D enabled in addition.

The only "problem" right now is rather a marketing problem in regards to drivers. There is no question that most games work (defintly with my setup which seems ideal for that too - the fact that there is a copany which has a monopoly on the driver, they sell licenses on a "per game" bases and want $4.99 per game license. Although most of the current titles are actually supported and would run relatively easy in 3D.

The current, new Nvidia 3D drivers for Vista are very nice, but they obviously ONLY support anaglyph (red/blue) and those Zalman monitors although there was older drives under XP which work with the DLPs with a simple registry hack.
For (marketing?) reasons Nvidia has disabled support for the new DLPs in their new drivers although i can see text in the drivers in regards to a various kind of displays, like VR shutter glasses, the Samsung and Mitsu DLP. The reason is that having this functions working in the new drivers would cut profits of ddd.com (makers of those "tridef" drivers) which would otherwise lose money if NV drivers would work out of the box. But its rather a matter of experimenting, or, well, spending the few bucks for drivers like BF2, FSX, WoW, Crysis etc. in addition. Retarded, but its the current state.
(Other option is, if all fails, use XP on another partition and use the old drivers with the "hack" which are working for all games then)

I am very glad i found out that we have those TVs now in Germany since a few weeks ago it was not clear whether samsung actually will bring them there...there was a german company importing/selling the older "3d ready" ones from the states for horror-prices, like EU (!) 5000 for the 50", EU 6000 respective 7000 (!, yes, EURO)...and then those would only work with an AC transformer and not support PAL system.
Now they came out with the Plasmas and i could buy this right now for 1300 shipped. The 3D is basically "free" since it costs very little to add this to the current HDTV sets...so, a "normal" HDTV of this quality would go for about the same already.

 

[flexy]

i need to add some corrections:

Being a noob i was calling those TVs "3d Plasma DLPs"...well DLP is not a Plasma, i learned that now.
Nevertheless Samsung now had those 3d Ready DLPs available in the states since march, and now also the new Plasmas.

The 3D DLPs are not available in EU, however the "3D Ready" Plasmas are.
The equivalent to the 3D Ready PS50A476 i am getting in EU is http://www.samsung.com/us/cons...odel_cd=PN50A450P1DXZA
which is the new 50" "3D-Ready" Plasma as sold in the states. Those are also called Samsung "series 4" plasma. Retails for around $1300, i just did a quick look on amazon.
The native resolution of those is 1368x760, 760p...
The "series 5" (I think) is the one featuring 1080p, but they are not "3d ready".

The little older DLPs which are available in the states, some of them *do* 1080p and do have the "3d ready" feature.
They would support 1920x1080 as "optimum" resolution now connecting them to a PC, but this is a total unrealistic gaming resolution considering that some 3d drivers already bring down FPS a lot i addition.
(I am doing testing with the "tridef" 3D drivers here and the drivers can drop FPS a lot. 1920x1080 in 3D, Crysis? Anyone? You would need a dual SLI setup

Btw. the DLPs do use LEDs and no bulbs.

Another gripe of mine is the horrible power-consumption to expect w/ a plasma...its 450W. No big deal for you guys in the states, but electricity is 3x more expensive here....and there's already a lot running 18h/day....and we're "hardcore" gamers..so having a 450W power consuming plasma on 14hrs a day.....is a lot.

Add: It gets even more complicated!

In the states there are also "series 4" LCDs being released which are 3D-ready.

http://www.productwiki.com/samsung-4-series/
ranging from 19" to 40"
I am not sure about which of those is "3d ready", i have contradicting information there.

 

[SniperDaws]

i got all excited thinking that Tv's were moving above HD and then i realised you have to wear shutter glasses still, itll never go main stream due to the fact alone.

 

[flexy]

if something goes mainstream, then this. NV is actually acitively working on support for this technology:
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/3d_stereo_dev.html

There are shutter glasses which work wireless (i ordered some) and weigh barely 50g or so.

On a technical side, the disadvantage of shutter glasses (flickering!) is gone now, sinec the new displays use 2x60hz, literally no flicker/headache.

So the only "disadvantage" is having to wear those light shutter glasses which IMHO is not *that* big a deal, now compared to VR googles or old technique which gave you headaches because of flickering. It might be a different story for people wearing glasses..but i still think it could be worse, not a deal-breaker IMHO.

 

[flexy]

Hello,

i want to update you guys. I got the 50" Plasma today and i already did some tests playing WoW in 3D The problem is that i need another kind of shutter glasses, so the 3D effect was rather "meh". I need the right glasse which work for this set.

When we got this TV today....the TV is a fricking MONSTER and we first lifted it on my desk so i could experiment a bit with those 3d drivers and the 3d functionality. I am an idiot since i wanted to take a photo with that set-up...but i forgot in all the excitement The picture quality was extremely good, like a giant 50" monitor..except that it literally filled all my field of view...just....blown away.

The "problem" with this monster display is its weight and size, and it takes some effort to lift this on my desk and back to where we watch TV. As for now we put it back to "Watch TV" location. l am probably about to get a rolling stand or something so i can move this thing towards my desk for gaming, but right now its just a major act to reposition this thing at all.
Also awaiting the matching 3d glasses (probably have to import them from the states)...and HOPEFULLY, please NVIDIA...i have a 3D-Ready plasma and i want to use your drivers with this set! Please re-enable DLP/3D ready support in your drivers!! (I know it's in there, i dont understand why they only support anaglyph 3D now...)

G.

Edit: Really bummer that i didnt take a picture...that thing dwarved my 22". WIll take pics next time when i am set up better w/ equipment.

 

[Avalon]

That actually sounds really badass, keep us updated.

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: Avalon
That actually sounds really badass, keep us updated.

:thumbsup:

I want to hear more...this sounds pretty kewl.

 

[MrCyberdude]

Did you have a look at the Cheap option of the Zalman ZM-M220W 22" LCD Monitor 1680x1050 (16:10) ?
What do you think?

I really wish that anandtech would do a review on the Zalman ZM-M220W as they are the only one who do decent reviews.
Tweaktowns review do not talk about framerates etc.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3d_stereo.html#displays
http://www.zalman.co.kr/ENG/pr...oduct_Read.asp?idx=219
http://www.techradar.com/produ...zm-m220w-204792/review
http://www.tweaktown.com/revie...ntroduction/index.html

 

[tuteja1986]

Split view technology is what i want to become standard. So i can play games with my pal without splitting screen in half. But instead my mate wears the glasses to see one image and i use the other glass to see the other image. This would then eliminate screen cheating

 

[flexy]

MrC. if you're interested in the tech...i highly recommend http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/
Its a forum about 3D tech, like it a lot.

I didnt even consider the Zalman since i have a nice 22" already...and FOV was a big factor. The nicest 3D is useless if its "only" happening on a 22" screen, that's my $0.02. For immersion in a game you need a big FOV...and a 50" in front of you certainly gives you that The TV, used as a monitor is also outstanding, i just posted about it over at mtbs.com. But certain restrictions apply since it's a plasma (image-retention, burn-in) although the set has may features to avoid those. Or just get the Samsung 3D DLPs (not a plasma) which are not that sensitive to image-retention. That said, its A+++ for gaming (be it 2D or 3D)...as long as you dont display a static desktop on it for 10hrs a day, at least for the plasma.

I have new 3d glasses coming since i am not sure whether mine work 100% ok, i still have some slight ghosting using 3D. I also have only ONE 3D DVD for now in horrible quality, but i ordered some of those known IMAX DVDs.

Flickering etc. is a non-issue, neither is resolution with this tech. My "complaint" so far still a little ghosting (using 3D)...but this could be since my current 3D glasses are not the right ones. The other "issue" is how tridef implements their 3D drivers, or how certain games work better in 3D than others. Its not always perfect.