Gamers? Rights - long rant

[dig314]

The typical return policy on a PC game is replacement only. Should a retailer offer a refund if a technical issue could not be resolved? Or Refund if Tech Support is not responsive at all to a problem? What if the retailer reasonably knows that Tech Support does not existent for a game? Should they at least make the customer aware of that fact before they sell the product?

My assumption is console games have stronger quality control before a game is release.
I assume that Sony and Nintendo have to give their approval before a game is released on their licensed platforms.

The PC has no such constraints. Now what happens if a crummy / buggy game is released on the PC? If you buy it on the release date, you are stuck with it. There is a reasonable chance it will be patched. . For everyone else, just wait until the game is reviewed a few places before making the purchase. The larger the publisher, the more likely it will be patched. Sadly, the larger publishers often stick to the mass-franchised games

However, you still run into problems. Ten or even twenty different reviewers may not uncover all the serious bugs or hardware issues. That is where Tech Support assistance is required. Hopefully, if enough information is gathered about a problem, a patch will be released.

The real problem occurs when a game developer or a game publisher chooses not to support a game for financial reasons, or they simply cannot afford to support a game.


Hypothetical Book example:
You buy a novel from your local bookstore only the find out the last 10 pages are missing. When you return it, the store offers you an exchange for the same novel. What if every copy at the store was missing the last 10 pages? Should they offer you a refund or at least a store credit? Should they keep selling the copies they have on hand knowing they are all faulty? Would they tell you to take ?your? problem up with the publisher?s customer service?

Two PC Game Examples:

Galactic Assault
I have been following the game Galactic Assault. This is a turn based tactical game with scripted missions with the same look as the Massive Assault series ? but more depth. In other words, this is not a product with mass appeal. I have NOT purchased it ? mainly because a patch has not been released. I did think the demo was great so I will eventually buy it. But the price is spiraling down to bargain bin prices, so I will wait for now.

It does not appear to have sold well in the US. Maybe it did better in Europe? The only ?official? English forum I could find suggests there is no response from Tech Support.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...php?f=368.aspx
When I buy the game, I do not expect any official support. Neither the retailer nor the game packaging will point that out to the unsuspecting buyer.


Titan Quest / Immortal Throne expansion
Titan Quest is a Diablo clone. In my opinion, the gameplay is better in several ways and worse in the technical/balance areas. I really do enjoy it though.
http://www.titanquest.net/forums/
I found this unofficial forum that warned about technical issues with the Immortal Throne expansion. I bought the expansion anyway - - and I ran into the same technical issues. I don?t regret that purchase, but after months, it seems unlikely a patch will ever be released. What the developers have indicated on the forum is the expansion did not sell well. Therefore, the publisher will not pay for a patch. The developer cannot / will not produce the patch without funding. Some bugs are minor, while the most glaring is game performance even on machines that exceed the RECOMMENDED specs. The developer should be scolded however?they changed the game engine for the expansion. The basic game without the expansion plays great. But the content offered in the expansion really makes the game shine. It is a shame they did not leave the expansion to strictly new content. Anyway, the technical FAQ at the THQ ( publisher ) offers some suggestions that do not seem help the game performance problem on my machine and many others.

My complaint here is all the big retailers in the US are still selling the expansion. Even STEAM is selling the Titan Quest games as a bundle. Of course, the developer / publisher can choose not patch the game. But should a retailer be allowed to sell the game without a warning? Maybe the Publisher should be required to list on the outside of the box all the bugs that they do not intend to patch?

I buy many of my games used from Ebay or after the shelf price has dropped. So I am not doing the game industry any favors. But at least it gives more time to see what kind of support the game has. On the other hand, people who buy games near the release date at full price are assuming the game will be supported. But the game publishers do not always treat the customers the way they should. Issues like this do not bode well for the PC Game industry.

Thanks for letting me rant.

Dig

 

[tigersty1e]

I did not read the whole post... but I got the gist... (next time give us cliff notes?)


ANyway.... games for windows live should be released with less errors and bugs. If Microsoft makes it so, they should at least give it their approval.

 

[jandrews]

I dont think so, you did what the smart consumer did, you researched your product, found the flaws and continued to purchase even knowing the issues still exist. Should you expect patches for known issues? Yes, but there is no service guarantee. All you can really hope for is a community patch :/

 

[NicColt]

Originally posted by: dig314

Should a retailer offer a refund if a technical issue could not be resolved?
Now what happens if a crummy / buggy game is released on the PC?

Dig

I've been ranting on this for two decades and the short answer is yes and no.

You use the Book example, but it's one sided, look at it a different way.

1) You goto the liquor store buy a bottle of booze and take a swig and don't like it "Should" they replace it just because you don't like that particular type of whisky ?

or

2) You goto the liquor store again and buy a bottle of booze and outside of the store you drop the bottle and it breaks, "should" they replace it because they didn't build strong enough ?

The main difference is that with buying liquor you have better consumer protection, in other words they can't just put water in it, or make the bottle in a way that you can't open it without breaking it and say sorry sucker you bought it so it's yours now.

In the software industry you hardly have ANY consumer protection, you are basically making a devil's handshake and hoping that the developer is able to deliver the product. Once you make that handshake and you license (buy) the product it's a crap shoot from there on the quality and you are SOL from this point on in a consumer protection way.

In other words, the EULA basically gives the software industry liability protection when their business practices are unethical, dishonest, malicious, fraudulent, deceitful, unscrupulous, deceptive or corrupt, and there's not much you can do about it. If regular mainstream businesses would function the way the software industry does, most would either be in Jail, in Court, Out of business or bankrupt.

there's my rant

 

[Modelworks]

This has been discussed tons over the years.
Unfortunately its something you have to deal with being a pc gamer.
If there is no demo available you really have to depend on reviews , other users.
As for the patches not being released that gets interesting.

I have seen publishers that will pay for patches to be done.
I have also seen developers who do the patches on their own for little or no pay, just because they are dedicated to the title.

I even saw one case where a developer had a patch ready to release and the publisher would not let them release it, becuase it wasn't quality control tested and the publisher wouldn't pay for it. So users never saw the patch and I guess its still on a hard drive somewhere.

Things have changed a lot in pc gaming over the last few years. Lots of the smaller publishers have been bought out by the mega companies like EA.
If you look back to when pc gaming started you had people that were really dedicated to the field, often working without pay, mortgaging houses, etc.

That kind of dedication is pretty much gone now. Its changed from something developers are passionate about to something that just another job. There are exceptions, but they are getting more and more rare.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: NicColt

Originally posted by: dig314

Should a retailer offer a refund if a technical issue could not be resolved?
Now what happens if a crummy / buggy game is released on the PC?

Dig

I've been ranting on this for two decades and the short answer is yes and no.

You use the Book example, but it's one sided, look at it a different way.

1) You goto the liquor store buy a bottle of booze and take a swig and don't like it "Should" they replace it just because you don't like that particular type of whisky ?

or

2) You goto the liquor store again and buy a bottle of booze and outside of the store you drop the bottle and it breaks, "should" they replace it because they didn't build strong enough ?

The main difference is that with buying liquor you have better consumer protection, in other words they can't just put water in it, or make the bottle in a way that you can't open it without breaking it and say sorry sucker you bought it so it's yours now.

In the software industry you hardly have ANY consumer protection, you are basically making a devil's handshake and hoping that the developer is able to deliver the product. Once you make that handshake and you license (buy) the product it's a crap shoot from there on the quality and you are SOL from this point on in a consumer protection way.

In other words, the EULA basically gives the software industry liability protection when their business practices are unethical, dishonest, malicious, fraudulent, deceitful, unscrupulous, deceptive or corrupt, and there's not much you can do about it. If regular mainstream businesses would function the way the software industry does, most would either be in Jail, in Court, Out of business or bankrupt.

there's my rant

not the worst AT analogy i've seen but still pretty bad. a video game is nothing like a consumable. if you don't like a game, they can still sell it. once you take a drink or open your bottle of alcohol, its done. they can't resell it.

i don't even see how dropping and breaking a bottle has any comparison to a video game. its your fault, not something to do with the product itself (in most cases).

 

[DangerAardvark]

It's more like if you buy a bottle of Tequila only to find that it's full of urine. A game so buggy you can't play it is useless to you, much like a bottle of urine. Both should be returnable. It's not a matter of whether you like it or not, it's a matter of getting what you paid for.

 

[BladeVenom]

Like you buy a bottle and find a dead mouse in it? Should they refund your money?

Even with consumables, many places offer refunds. I'd estimate half the food products have "satisfaction guaranteed" on the label. Almost all food at Aldi's is returnable if you don't like it. Most companies stand behind the quality of their products.

 

[Bateluer]

Consumers don't have any rights. You need to subscribe to the RIAA, MPAA, and EA newsletters.

 

[Oyeve]

Long ago (Pre CDROM days) games purchased at Egghead and such allowed full refunds of games even if opened. It was because the PC back then was so F'ed up. No standards like we have today. Many games of your just plain didnt work on all PCs. Especially in the DOS days. Stores nor SW publishers could guarentee a given game would work on any given PC. I remember when "The 7th Guest" came out on cd and my vga card was only 64K and the game needed something like 240K and I had to buy a new video card for 100 bucks just to ge the game to run. But the box didnt list specs, all it said was VGA needed. Now, PCs are very identical and the refund policy has dramatcally changed.

 

[kirilus]

I think those problems have largely contributed to the widespread use of pirated games. There are many things that could potentially go wrong after you buy a game (risk) but there is absolutely no compensation for taking that risk (like in finance...)