Gamer needs to build a server

[ThePiston]

I have a lot of experience building gaming PCs. I've even built servers before but they were really just gaming PCs with MS Server installed.

I need to build a "grown up" server for my business.

What do I have to change about the build? ECC ram? Special mobo? I know I need a PSU with dual rails. What about CPU? I was going to get an i7 3750.

This will be for a small medical office to run a MS SQL server and files for about 15 PCs.

Is it ok to build a gaming PC and use it for a server?

 

[Theb]

What are you wanting to achieve by building it rather than buying a server off the shelf?

I would just buy a ThinkServer. Dual power supplies, RAID 1+0. Even though it's just one server I would run it in ESXi so that you have snapshots you can move to new hardware if SHTF.

 

[hannibal.smith]

This is one of those things that hard core enthusiasts often don't want to accept but...you'll be better served buying rather than building in this case. The tasks you describe can be easily handled be even the least expensive Dell servers. I suggest starting there to get an idea of the kind of hardware used in a typical server.

I can't say exactly what you need, but when I spec a new database/file server I worry about disk speed/size/redundancy and RAM, in that order. The last time I purchased a db server those two items alone made up more than 50% of the overall cost. I honestly couldn't have built the server for less than what I paid Dell.

 

[ThePiston]

Cause I can build a faster box for half the cost. And I enjoy it.

 

[ThePiston]

I guess I'm stubborn and would rather learn for myself then. I built the server we use now with a dual core AMD chip at 45W and basic mobo with onboard raid plus spare parts. Cost me only about $500. Has been running 24/7 without issue for almost 3 years. Time to upgrade though while things are smooth.

 

[brshoemak]

Has been running 24/7 without issue for almost 3
years.

That's not a measure of reliability - just your experience. I once had a hard drive with 54GB of media that ran for 4 years without a hiccup. It died the day before I received one I had purchased to replace it. No backups, ignorance of youth. One of the main reasons to use an actual branded server is for the support they can provide for the hardware itself. You can go ahead and say that you'll run out to Best Buy and pickup a replacement XYZ, but if it's Sunday night at 11:45PM you're out of luck - your office opens at 8:00am (or whenever) and clients will not care than you're having technical issues. Servers are all about reliability and uptime (plus more flexible hardware in some cases).

Theoretically, you can use any decently new computer to act as a server - I doubt anything your medical office runs would require more than a mid-range laptop.

If you want to go the whitebox route and use actual server components, in some cases you'll find 100% premiums for server components over consumer grade items - Xeon CPUs, ECC memory, MBs equipped to handle said components.

You will be hard pressed to do it cheaper than a low-end Dell or Lenovo server, especially with all the sales they have.

Basically, do whatever you want - almost anything will handle it from a software
perspective. If you're okay with downtime without support then that's fine. I'm capable of fixing all hardware, from desktops to blade servers, but for the businesses I support they need as much uptime as possible and downtime is much more costly than the initial outlay of capital required for supported server-level hardware.

btw, backups always.

 

[ThePiston]

I hear you. I do buy a lot of branded PCs for family or friends since I know they'll just be bugging me to fix whatever comes up. Honestly though in the office, I'll be faster to fix anything than calling another company or an IT person. I also have a bad burning to build again. Plus, I'm going all Mac at home for the sake of my non-tech wife so building a PC server is all I have left to scratch the itch of a new build.

I just didnt know if it really mattered beyond quality of parts to use consumer gaming-grade parts for a server. I'll have to do more research and look into the Dell/Lenovos as well.

 

[Sleepingforest]

If I were to build a server, I would simply keep a backup part of the parts most likely to fail (HDDs, PSUs) as well as backing up the data to something external and preferably off-site (protection from fire, flood, etc in your office). That minimizes possible downtime, though it is an expensive solution.

 

[Paperlantern]

I will backup the users here that have already stated that using a branded server is much better than building something for a BUSINESS server. Home servers are one thing, but when a business is being served, you cannot go wrong buying something from HP or Dell. They are DESIGNED and warrantied appropriately. Components are tested and burned in together for maximum compatibility and life span.

Anything you get should match what you are serving and the load it will handle. Storage space and RAID level depend on how much IO the 15 clients will be requiring of the server and how big the database is now and how big it will likely get in the lifespan of the server... plus a little more. RAM installed should adequately hold the database up smoothly so the users have a good experience (SQL soaks up a lot of memory by nature anyway).

You could likely build something that could handle what you are doing at this office, but it really wouldn't be in your best interest.

I also second the ESX/ESXi suggestion, running it in a VM will also help when you upgrade AGAIN in the future allowing you to simply migrate the server to the new hardware without having to reinstall the OS to new bare metal. IN addition to the backup and snapshot capabilities. It's an INCREDIBLY smart move from a management and support perspective.

 

[BTRY B 529th FA BN]

One thing I would do is build it around ECC memory and maybe an Ivy-Bridge

 

[VirtualLarry]

Look for Xeon CPUs, and ECC RAM. Those are more important for servers that cannot deal with corrupted data (bad business spreadsheets!), than for your usual gaming rig at home. (Bad dot on a texture somewhere? Who cares.)

 

[ThePiston]

One thing I would do is build it around ECC memory and maybe an Ivy-Bridge

I'll go Ivy Bridge i7 w/HT and integrated GPU, ECC mem, software raid HDDs for database, probably a Samsung 830 256GB for startup, external backup disc, online backup, dual rail high quality PSU with battery backup.

I priced out a comparable ThinkServer and it was $3500. Since I'm the owner and do not have an IT budget, $3500 sounds ridiculous to me. I know most of you guys have a checkbook from the CFO to cover costs, but I need to make do with what I know and can afford.

If it fails on day 2, I can buy and build another one for less than cost of ThinkServer. hell, I can build 2 and keep one on standby.

I don't think my data or situation is as dire as someone else's though. I'm sure the ThinkServer and other 'real' servers have their place, but my situation is not like that. If the server fails, we can always use paper for a day or 2.

I usually rebuild every 2-3 years. Been doing this now for 10+ years without one day of failure. (fingers crossed)

I get to build out a nice machine, have a blast doing it, and it keeps me sane. It's therapeutic when it's not your real job. Ironically, if I were to pay someone to do this, I'd have him buy me an off-the-shelf server.

 

[snoylekim]

I'll go Ivy Bridge i7 w/HT and integrated GPU, ECC mem, software raid HDDs for database, probably a Samsung 830 256GB for startup, external backup disc, online backup, dual rail high quality PSU with battery backup.

I priced out a comparable ThinkServer and it was $3500. Since I'm the owner and do not have an IT budget, $3500 sounds ridiculous to me. I know most of you guys have a checkbook from the CFO to cover costs, but I need to make do with what I know and can afford.

If it fails on day 2, I can buy and build another one for less than cost of ThinkServer. hell, I can build 2 and keep one on standby.

I don't think my data or situation is as dire as someone else's though. I'm sure the ThinkServer and other 'real' servers have their place, but my situation is not like that. If the server fails, we can always use paper for a day or 2.

I usually rebuild every 2-3 years. Been doing this now for 10+ years without one day of failure. (fingers crossed)

I get to build out a nice machine, have a blast doing it, and it keeps me sane. It's therapeutic when it's not your real job. Ironically, if I were to pay someone to do this, I'd have him buy me an off-the-shelf server.

You're probably looking at an E3-1265L (V2 w/ Integrated Graphics) Xeon versus an i7-3770 if you're dead set on ECC ..not many, if any mobos support ECC with the I series that I've seen .. i think this is the Xeon '3770 non OC' equivalent .. looks to be in the same price range .. Have fun

 

[ThePiston]

i actually did some research and the E3-1265L V2 looks appealing. 45W. add in some ECC ram and Asus mobo, and I'd be good to go.

 

[snoylekim]

I run a P8Z77-WS motherboard ( not as a server, but more a photo/video WS) . think it's certified w/ that processor, plus dual NIC, which might help for a server config .. nice board, but maybe more than you need .. check it out .. very stable..

 

[imagoon]

I'll go Ivy Bridge i7 w/HT and integrated GPU, ECC mem, software raid HDDs for database, probably a Samsung 830 256GB for startup, external backup disc, online backup, dual rail high quality PSU with battery backup.

I priced out a comparable ThinkServer and it was $3500. Since I'm the owner and do not have an IT budget, $3500 sounds ridiculous to me. I know most of you guys have a checkbook from the CFO to cover costs, but I need to make do with what I know and can afford.

If it fails on day 2, I can buy and build another one for less than cost of ThinkServer. hell, I can build 2 and keep one on standby.

I don't think my data or situation is as dire as someone else's though. I'm sure the ThinkServer and other 'real' servers have their place, but my situation is not like that. If the server fails, we can always use paper for a day or 2.

I usually rebuild every 2-3 years. Been doing this now for 10+ years without one day of failure. (fingers crossed)

I get to build out a nice machine, have a blast doing it, and it keeps me sane. It's therapeutic when it's not your real job. Ironically, if I were to pay someone to do this, I'd have him buy me an off-the-shelf server.

See this is why you leave building servers to the pros.

Ivy Bridge, other than a couple of the newly released i3 processors and 2 of the mobile processors don't support ECC. You need a Xeon for that. An SSD for a server OS boot drive is a waste of cash. The Server OS has zero need of that performance. Software RAID is just asking for trouble and using it for a MSSQL database is just plain silly as the database performance will be pretty poor on software RAID. Dual Rail PSU's don't have much of a place in servers either. That is a gaming thing and basically unnecessary.

You could do better than that by calling Dell with $1000 and working on building a T110 or T310. They would build it for you and you have a warranty to let them come out and fix it for you when it breaks.

Also you have verified that your online backups meet all the required compliance checks and certifications for HIPPA correct?

Something like the T110 -> 8GB of RAM (or more if your Database has the need of it) RAID 1 spinning rust boot drives of something small. And then, depending on the database -> database and transactions on one LUN (RAID 1) or a pair of RAID 1 LUNs splitting database and transaction. Add whatever space you need for files. Typically putting workstation files on the same LUNs as the database files is not a good move as all it takes is Suzy Q secretary loading her itunes on the network drive to cause the database to crash hard due to an out of disk space conditions. If the database growth is not expected to go above 256GB in the for see-able future, you might consider RAID 1 SSD's for it and spinning rust for the rest the file serving.

You really need to give more information about the database and it is access performance. If the app is row busy, performance for the file server can tank and vis versa.

Also the CFO gives us that checkbook because they know that a couple of days of down time typically costs more than the money saved by "building your own servers." This becomes especially true in 2 years where that gaming motherboard that was cool 2 years ago is nothing more than an Ebay special that might take you a 2 weeks to get.

 

[ThePiston]

See this is why you leave building servers to the pros.

Ivy Bridge, other than a couple of the newly released i3 processors and 2 of the mobile processors don't support ECC. You need a Xeon for that.

Decided to go with Xeon in later post

An SSD for a server OS boot drive is a waste of cash. The Server OS has zero need of that performance.

We use Terminal Services so I like to have a fast startup i the morning when we fire up all of our clients. I also like SSD (a quality one) for its longevity. Price has come down, so why not?

Software RAID is just asking for trouble and using it for a MSSQL database is just plain silly as the database performance will be pretty poor on software RAID.

Been using it strictly for mirroring the data, not performance for 10+ years without issue. Not using it for performance.

Dual Rail PSU's don't have much of a place in servers either. That is a gaming thing and basically unnecessary.

You might be right there, but better than a regular PSU.

You could do better than that by calling Dell with $1000 and working on building a T110 or T310. They would build it for you and you have a warranty to let them come out and fix it for you when it breaks.

performance on a $1000 Dell server would be nowhere near what I'm building on my own.

Also you have verified that your online backups meet all the required compliance checks and certifications for HIPPA correct?

yes, of course. Database is encrypted, server doors locked at all times. etc, etc. HIPAA has no specific rules on data when you read the fine print other than it has to be as secure as possible. HITECH does have an encryption rule though.

Something like the T110 -> 8GB of RAM (or more if your Database has the need of it) RAID 1 spinning rust boot drives of something small. And then, depending on the database -> database and transactions on one LUN (RAID 1) or a pair of RAID 1 LUNs splitting database and transaction. Add whatever space you need for files. Typically putting workstation files on the same LUNs as the database files is not a good move as all it takes is Suzy Q secretary loading her itunes on the network drive to cause the database to crash hard due to an out of disk space conditions. If the database growth is not expected to go above 256GB in the for see-able future, you might consider RAID 1 SSD's for it and spinning rust for the rest the file serving.

has TRIM for raid been worked out on all mobos yet? I thought only Intel was working on it with limited support for it.

You really need to give more information about the database and it is access performance. If the app is row busy, performance for the file server can tank and vis versa.

I should have clarified that this app we use is not busy at all. It's a custom MS SQL app and only a few people use it at a time (a few clicks per sec max).

Also the CFO gives us that checkbook because they know that a couple of days of down time typically costs more than the money saved by "building your own servers." This becomes especially true in 2 years where that gaming motherboard that was cool 2 years ago is nothing more than an Ebay special that might take you a 2 weeks to get.

Decided to go with server mobo, ECC and Xeon. low wattage CPU with burst and onboard video. E3-1265L V2 (45W) I might even go with the 17W version but it has 2/4 cores/threads and only a 2000 series GPU instead of 4000 for the 1265L.

 

[imagoon]

Lots of stuff

Ok then. It seems your set in your ways. You seem to completely miss that you don't build it for performance, you build it so when your gaming rig blows up one night, you are not wasting a week trying to find parts in 2 years.

TRIM in RAID is basically irrelevant, granted you seem to want to use consumer SSDs with only about 7% spare area. The performance will help but a properly configured terminal server should not be storing all of the user parts on the local OS drive anyway.

It seems odd that you are fine with buying terminal services, 15+ TS CALs, 15+ Server CALs, and 15+ MSSQL CALs but are not concerned about reliability of the hardware. I confuses me how you would be willing to stake your business on duct tape, bailing wire and bubble gum approach when the commodity server hardware has been cheaper TCO for the better part of a decade now. To each there own I guess.

 

[ThePiston]

The Xeon CPU, 32GB ECC ram, dual rail PSU, server mobo - that's bubblegum and duct tape? I already own the TS licenses and OS. The MS SQL license is open for any user of the server.

 

[imagoon]

The Xeon CPU, 32GB ECC ram, dual rail PSU, server mobo - that's bubblegum and duct tape? I already own the TS licenses and OS. The MS SQL license is open for any user of the server.

I consider white box servers [unless you are on the scale of google / facebook and keep a parts store on hand or otherwise have a method to deal with failures] bubblegum and duct tape. My personal experience as a smb contractor has been that whitebox servers / local built were a great source of revenue for me because I was able to bill the hours I spent searching the web for old parts.

At least old Dell / HP / IBM parts had part numbers and interchange guides. They also kept parts around for 5+ years making parts easy to find even 7-8 years later. Looking for say motherboards that were no longer made / made by a now out of business manufacture for a white box was typically an adventure.

Your experiences may differ. I just see things like "software RAID" and know that, for example, you can't mirror the Windows OS using it which is by far the most painful part to get set up correctly [I include the time installing SQL / you apps / setting up TS / Getting AD setup.] Generally the performance is poor. Last I checked Microsoft doesn't support it for MSSQL etc.

If you have determined that in your loss / risk analysis on your company can handle a few days or more of down time while you rebuild the system from scratch or search for parts or deal with potential data loss have at it.

I personally find the loss / risk adverse after 4-5 employees. At that point you have generally paid them to not work, or do double work [paper -> entering in to the system later] than you saved by getting a unsupported box.

Servers are most definitely not gaming PC's. The performance for gaming doesn't really translate in to TS and MSSQL [on the same box none the less.]

 

[InfiniteLurker]

If you have determined that in your loss / risk analysis on your company can handle a few days or more of down time while you rebuild the system from scratch or search for parts or deal with potential data loss have at it.

I just wanted to add another voice and strongly urge you to reconsider building your own server and re-read the above quote. Can your business truly handle not having this server up for a week, while you toil away at trying to get it back up and running and getting the data back rather than you doing the work you would normally be doing which is probably important as well?

The piece of mind of being able to call up your vendor and, for example, have a new drive (which may not be easy to find for sale 5 years from now) that you are guaranteed is going to work with your current RAID configuration show up the next morning is worth every penny. Other benefits like monitoring software that can alert you to issues with redundant power supplies, drive problems, etc. only makes it more of a no-brainer.

 

[ThePiston]

duly noted.

For guys telling me to get a ready-made server to stem my losses, you guys seem to have a lot of experience with dead servers.

Is there any (scientific, peer-reviewed) proof that server parts die less frequently than quality consumer-grade parts? That seems to be the point you guys are making here - that server parts last longer and are more durable than consumer parts.

I agree that someone without any troubleshooting skills should buy from a vendor, but I'm not at that level. I've been troubleshooting PCs from BIOS to OS since 1984 - just not on a real server - only PCs I've used as servers.

I'd say if you have a quality consumer-grade box with a low-wattage CPU, good cooling, no OCing, then you can make that last a really long time. Way longer than a 4 year cycle at which time you'd build a new one anyway.

I do not want a server that will last 20 years. I want a fast, reliable setup that will last me 3-4 years. And not one that will cost too much.

I save a LOT of money by doing my own IT work. My colleagues spend absurd amounts of money to an IT firm just to have someone come and remove a paper jam from their printer.

I appreciate the input. If this blows up in my face, I'll let you guys tell me "I told you so." But for now, I'll probably build a white box with server parts and learn for myself.

 

[InfiniteLurker]

In my opinion, the point we're trying to make has absolutely nothing to do with longevity of server parts, and everything to do with turnaround time and business impact should something go wrong.

I have no problems troubleshooting hardware issues, a long history doing it, and even enjoy it, much like you. I also like going on vacation from time to time. Going with a vendor protects the company I work for should I be on a beach somewhere halfway around the world, or should I get hit by a bus. You may not always be there to help them out, but [insert your vendor name] more than likely will be there if you choose a reputable one.

 

[imagoon]

In my opinion, the point we're trying to make has absolutely nothing to do with longevity of server parts, and everything to do with turnaround time and business impact should something go wrong.

I have no problems troubleshooting hardware issues, a long history doing it, and even enjoy it, much like you. I also like going on vacation from time to time. Going with a vendor protects the company I work for should I be on a beach somewhere halfway around the world, or should I get hit by a bus. You may not always be there to help them out, but [insert your vendor name] more than likely will be there if you choose a reputable one.

This is the reason. Dell will keep the motherboards for servers [and their desktops] in stock and in production for for longer than ASUS / ASrock etc will keep a model in production. They will keep a supply of drives, PSU's RAM around also. The typical life of most of the gamer motherboards is at most a year. After 2-3 you are looking on ebay for unknown quality and use boards to replace it. You could also be buying it from Jonny Gamer who might get around to shipping it in the next 3-7 days via UPS ground. Mean while a 3 - 5 year 8x5 dell warranty would have one to your door, next business day with a tech ready to install it.

So yes, consumer hardware may never fail. Just like your office building may never burn down or you customer or employee may not fall down the stairs and break two legs at the office. Yet, you would never question buying business insurance and liability insurance.

Have you done the risk / loss analysis yet? Most people that talk about doing what you are talking about rarely have sat down and actually looked at the raw numbers. You are business owner, you should be well aware of what TCO is. TCO includes risk and loss. Burned up hardware costs more than the cost of parts to fix it. It also costs the time you waste dealing with and the loss of time and productivity of your employees. The obscene prices you mention start to make more sense when you stop valuing yourself as a free resource. You are not free, your time costs the business. If you spend a week dicking around with a gamer PC server, that is a week you don't get business productive work done. You are no longer driving profit, you're the expense.

If you show on paper that the white box is the way to go then great. The subtle hint is however that only companies like Google and Facebook actually show a lower TCO with consumer gear and that is because their business model is designed to absorb and marginalize lost hardware.

 

[Dstoop]

yes, of course. Database is encrypted, server doors locked at all times. etc, etc. HIPAA has no specific rules on data when you read the fine print other than it has to be as secure as possible. HITECH does have an encryption rule though.

HIPAA/HITECH also has requirements for making sure stored PHI is accurate (aka not corrupted) as well as being able to recover that stored PHI in the event of a disaster. "I'll just run to best buy and grab a new hard drive" is not a disaster recovery plan, and a consumer-grade SSD with yet another bad firmware could easily cripple your server or corrupt client data. Yes, HIPAA doesn't have hard and fast "use this" regulations in it, but heaven help you if you get audited, you're just asking for trouble.

Honestly, you need to be weighing two things against each other here: how important scratching that itch to build a sweet gaming rig is, and how important your business and your loyalty to your clients is. Just like any other business equipment purchase, you're not paying that markup for performance, you're paying it for support and reliability.

On a personal level, if a medical office handling *my* medical information was using some fly-by-night gaming rig to store everything instead of doing it right, I'd switch to another medical practice immediately. The guy who's telling a patient he needs to reschedule the appointment because his l33t new SSD has a firmware bug and the server with his CAT scan results showing whether or not he has lung cancer is down with no ETA of recovery is the guy who's asking to get himself sued, or worse.

"I want to build a new PC" is not a smart business decision. Do yourself a favor and buy the server, then use some of that money you made by not suffering from downtime to build yourself a sweet gaming rig for your home.