Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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"My interpretation was he was going to help Sansa and didn't know Ramsay was going to be in the tower. Then when he found Ramsay there he improvised"

What I think happened: he knew he'd be there, and always planned to go and tell him.

It was a 'cheap writer's trick' to not warn the viewer.

What a coincidence:

The room the woman picked for the candle just HAPPENED to be the one he'd use. And Sansa had no idea, of course.
 

Lean L

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2009
3,685
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I read a few posts containing some rape arguments? Well... I skipped those posts mainly.

My question is how is any of that relevant? Does it matter if it was rape or not to any plot points? Did it matter for the time period? How does it change anything? Was your perception of Ramsey pearly prior to this event?
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
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"My interpretation was he was going to help Sansa and didn't know Ramsay was going to be in the tower. Then when he found Ramsay there he improvised"

What I think happened: he knew he'd be there, and always planned to go and tell him.

It was a 'cheap writer's trick' to not warn the viewer.

What a coincidence:

The room the woman picked for the candle just HAPPENED to be the one he'd use. And Sansa had no idea, of course.
Well I also assumed that Ramsay had known about the signal for some time and was just waiting for Sansa to trigger it in order to catch potentially more rebels. That would also explain why he kept Sansa isolated, so if anyone was going to help her they'd have to come to her chamber and would be caught in the process.

But I suppose the simpler explanation is Theon is still a whipped dog and turned her in.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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When I watched the episode, I didn't get the impression that Ramsay was in the broken tower, but rather that Theon completely ignored Sansa's request and went straight to Ramsay because he's a whipped dog. But that bit was edited in a confusing way, so it wasn't made clear which interpretation is correct. It strikes me as more in character for Reek, at this point, to go straight to his master, not to stumble upon him by accident and give in.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
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I read a few posts containing some rape arguments? Well... I skipped those posts mainly.

My question is how is any of that relevant? Does it matter if it was rape or not to any plot points? Did it matter for the time period? How does it change anything? Was your perception of Ramsey pearly prior to this event?
The argument has gone far beyond "relevant"... It's just a couple of people out to absolutely prove that they are right and the other is wrong. Even though the other would never admit as such, even if they honestly believed it.

Perhaps it's entertaining for them, but it's not to anyone else. I'm not sure they care about that, as much as they do about being "right."
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
1
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When I watched the episode, I didn't get the impression that Ramsay was in the broken tower, but rather that Theon completely ignored Sansa's request and went straight to Ramsay because he's a whipped dog. But that bit was edited in a confusing way, so it wasn't made clear which interpretation is correct. It strikes me as more in character for Reek, at this point, to go straight to his master, not to stumble upon him by accident and give in.
With him climbing all the stairs, it looked like he was going to the tower. At first I thought "Why is Ramsay all set up in the high tower?"
 
Feb 6, 2007
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With him climbing all the stairs, it looked like he was going to the tower. At first I thought "Why is Ramsay all set up in the high tower?"
There's more than one tower in Winterfell, and the one that Sansa was told to place the candle in was the broken tower, so it no longer has a roof. My impression was that Theon went into a different tower and it was edited in such a way as to be ambiguous as to which tower it was until he opened a door to reveal Ramsay. The viewer is left with hope that he might be helping only to have those hopes dashed with the reveal that he is in a different tower.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
23,562
611
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And you STILL haven't replied to the main point. You argue all the obvious subtext and gloss over the direct threat just as he raped her.
"Do I have to ask twice? I don't like asking twice."

-Ramsey after demanding that Sansa disrobe, and she initially didn't. Not my imagination.
I have answered it repeatedly. She only hesitated because Theon was there. Watch it again. She casts her eyes toward him and waits expecting him to leave before taking her clothes off. Clearly she was going to do it even before he said that and she went through with it after he said it. Saying it changed NOTHING. Not sure how anyone could think it changes anything.

Is someone seriously arguing that Sansa wasn't raped? Even after they show her the next episode covered in bruises and willing to forgive Theon for killing her brothers if he can only stop Ramsay from raping her every night? That was already a difficult position to justify, given that the first sexual encounter took place with Ramsay forcing Theon to watch, but with the information from the most recent episode, it's literally impossible to arrive at the conclusion that Sansa is consenting to the sex. She is not. It is rape. Don't be a fucking moron.
Only thing we were ever arguing was if it was rape at the end of THAT episode because determining that determined if the outrage at the assumed rape was justified. Her bruises in the next episode were not there then and, thus, do not justify the outrage that happened BEFORE that episode. "Raping her every night?!" How do you know he's not simply beating her every night and hasn't had sex since the wedding night?

How so? He didn't go to rescue Myrcella because Cersei manipulated him (by fraudulently invoking Tommen's authority or some other method), he did it because his daughter is legitimately in danger. And he's trying especially hard to atone because he feels guilty over contributing to his father's death.
An awful lot of it was because the woman he loves, Cersei, was rejecting him until he atoned for it.

I read a few posts containing some rape arguments? Well... I skipped those posts mainly.

My question is how is any of that relevant? Does it matter if it was rape or not to any plot points? Did it matter for the time period? How does it change anything? Was your perception of Ramsey pearly prior to this event?
We are addressing the crap-storm it caused outside of the show. Was it justified or based on a false premise? We must argue.

When I watched the episode, I didn't get the impression that Ramsay was in the broken tower, but rather that Theon completely ignored Sansa's request and went straight to Ramsay because he's a whipped dog. But that bit was edited in a confusing way, so it wasn't made clear which interpretation is correct. It strikes me as more in character for Reek, at this point, to go straight to his master, not to stumble upon him by accident and give in.
Then why did he refuse at first? Why didn't he accept the candle without hesitation and go straight to Ramsay? She had to appeal to him and tried to assert his identity before he agreed.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
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There's more than one tower in Winterfell, and the one that Sansa was told to place the candle in was the broken tower, so it no longer has a roof. My impression was that Theon went into a different tower and it was edited in such a way as to be ambiguous as to which tower it was until he opened a door to reveal Ramsay. The viewer is left with hope that he might be helping only to have those hopes dashed with the reveal that he is in a different tower.
Broken towers have multiple rooms. Only the top room will not have a roof. He looked toward the broken tower and moved toward it implying that this is where he went. It could be annoyingly stupid misdirection. I hope the writers know that we don't consider that clever. It's deceptive and confusing.
 
Mar 10, 2005
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There's more than one tower in Winterfell, and the one that Sansa was told to place the candle in was the broken tower, so it no longer has a roof. My impression was that Theon went into a different tower and it was edited in such a way as to be ambiguous as to which tower it was until he opened a door to reveal Ramsay. The viewer is left with hope that he might be helping only to have those hopes dashed with the reveal that he is in a different tower.
upon further review, i agree.

could be theon's gift to ramsay

btw, next episode is "hardhome". sounds like where sansa is, aka "miserytown"
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
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I have answered it repeatedly. She only hesitated because Theon was there. Watch it again. She casts her eyes toward him and waits expecting him to leave before taking her clothes off. Clearly she was going to do it even before he said that and she went through with it after he said it. Saying it changed NOTHING. Not sure how anyone could think it changes anything.
OK, clearly you were never taught what rape is. I can't believe I have to post this, but...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape
noun
1.
unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.
Note that victim need not be physically forced for the sex to be nonconsensual.

Now let's say the rest of your argument holds water and she only resisted after Ramsay made Theon stay. At that point the threat comes out, and it does indeed change her behavior (she starts to take her clothes off). That makes it sex under threat without the consent of the victim (particularly after how she called Tyrion kind and gentle for not touching her, trying to entice Ramsay to do the same). If you need to argue with the dictionary to boost your ego, then please continue.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,243
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Phew, was away so just caught up on the last two episodes.

Episode 6 was only ok; felt a bit meandering and unsatisfying. The Sand Snakes fight was laughably bad, which is a shame because it could/should have been cool. Honestly I just hate anything in Dorne for the most part. Arya story was ok, nothing great. Was definitely stoked to have Olenna back, so loved her back and forth with Cersei.

Winterfell was good and I have no idea why there is any controversy, it most assuredly was a rape of Sansa, but that's what I expected to happen and it made sense with that story and the characters involved it also makes sense in this universe. Don't really get the problem with it, aside from the fact it was creepy/disturbing? Hoping this finally snaps Theon out of his funk.

Episode 7 was a bit better. The sand snake stuff was stupid again, though at least having Bronn there made it more enjoyable and that lasy was indeed hot. Jorah and Tyrion was decent, though it all seemed a bit silly and convenient; did enjoy the reveal of Tyrion was cool. The Wall was ok, but pretty dull. King's Landing was the best stuff, loved everything with Olenna, LF, Cersei, Margaery, and the High Sparrow. Awesome ending too.

Only 3 episodes left in the season! :(

KT
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
15,141
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I think it is quite obvious that the series try to focus on the main characters, where the books wandered off. Not always successfully though...
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
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I didn't fail to empathize. I refused to delude myself about WHY I was empathizing and called it what it was: A tough decision to follow through with with emotions beyond the technical circumstances. I said so specifically last week when I said that it was the same emotions as if it were rape, but that does not make it rape.
Good, you at least understand she was "raped", now you're just confused about semantics.

Yes. She. Did. It's not even debatable. She never showed any sign of distress to Ramsay in the episode. Yes, she grit her teeth and made a strained face, but Ramsay never saw it. I guess Gilly raped Samwell by your logic. She heard his pain, knew about his desire to stay true to his vows, and moved on anyway. That BITCH.
maybe you're hard of hearing? Sansa was crying out in obvious distress. And, ignoring the fact that Sam initiated things by asking Gilly to stay, when Sam had his own moment of distress, Gilly stopped and asked if Sam was ok, double-checked, and only continued when Sam confirmed. Ramsay did none of this, and continued upon a course of action that made Theon/Reek cry.

They conveyed it perfectly well
apparently not well enough if you're still struggling with it

but we are arguing about what happened in that episode, not what happened after. Even then, lots of deadbeats beat their women. They get charged with domestic abuse. They only get charged with rape if rape is also a factor. Domestic violence is not the same thing as rape.
you're right, its possible to be the victim of a rape even with the rapist being 100% tender/caring/loving. Ramsay would be guilty of rape and battery, along with all his other crimes of torture/murder/etc.

Those people are idiots in more ways than that. they chose something that wasn't even rape before starting their crusade. Why do YOU agree with them?
I agree that its rape because its rape. I don't agree with them otherwise, the show didn't go too far, Sansa doesn't deserve any more protection than any other character, although she's certainly been spared more than others.

Fair enough. We disagree about whether or not it was rape. I still have a problem with people simply deciding that "it was rape" without even considering what led to that. Every single person severely over reacting like that FIRST had to jump to the "RAPE!" conclusion, so i am addressing that too.
but it was rape... Sansa's noncompliance when Ramsay commanded her to take off her clothes (something Tyrion stopped Sansa from doing on her own accord), Ramsay then taking her forcibly when she didn't comply to his satisfaction, Sansa's own obvious cries of distress with clear negative connotation (i.e. not merely an uncomfortable annoyance), and of course Theon weeping at the sight of what he was witnessing instead of just looking uncomfortable in an awkward situation

At the wedding, when they asked if she "takes this man." There was no threat of death for saying "no."
Yes there was. The Boltons murdered most of her immediate friends/family/court. If she did not comply and play their game, she would be a hindrance to their claim on the north and they would kill her just like the rest of her family, and just like how they have attempted to hunt down and kill Bran and Rickon upon discovering that Theon didn't actually murder the Stark boys.

There WAS the knowledge that she would have to consummate the marriage with intercourse that night if she said "yes." She said "yes." It was a tough pill to swallow for what she wanted, but it was what she wanted and was not forced upon her.
of course, we agree here, but while she was apparently willing to consummate the marriage, she was clearly not ok with how Ramsay wanted to go about it. That's all that it takes. Ramsay might be legal in terms of Westerosi standards, but not by modern IRL ones.

Again, I'll use the Tyrion example - Tyrion gave Sansa the power to make the choice that has been denied to her in this world even though it was completely within Tyrion's right to take her and have his way with her as her husband in such a realm.

Minutes earlier she could have asked the woman dressing her to help right away. Before that she could have told Baelish "no." Hell, in the room with Ramsay, she could have changed her mind and refused to consummate.
Again, putting yourself in a situation that increases your chance of getting raped does not mean you consent to any rape that happens.

Killing a guest in your home does not bode well in that world.
didn't stop many/most of the characters we've seen with the same situation. If I'm a Stark I sure as hell no longer hold any faith in such hospitality "laws"

Good luck proving that in the court of law. To have an equivalent situation "in our society," there would need to be an agreement that it be consummated with intercourse (since marriage does not come with that assumption here). Let's just say it was in the prenup. That *IS* consent. She didn't say or do anything that the witness (Theon) could testify as revoking the consent given when she accepted that agreement. She never called it off. It wasn't technically rape, therefore, it wasn't legally rape.
coercion is a factor in rape, proving that Sansa was unable to give consent to Ramsay's sexual acts would be easy to prove. Hell, the fact that Sansa is still a minor by our laws would be a slam dunk before considering all the evidence.

I will 100% agree that Ramsay was within his rights in Westeros, but that doesn't make it not rape in our eyes. Just like how slavery was considered justified at times in the past, now most civilized minds find it abhorrent.

...but GUESS WHAT? The equivalent in modern society would be making a CONTRACT that says that the marriage is not valid unless consummated and that absolutely would show that her agreement to marry constituted consent.
the problem here is that such a contract pretty much could not exist in modern society, it would be like signing a contract to be someone's slave, it just wouldn't hold up because we have laws that prevent it. It doesn't matter if it was legal then, it wouldn't be legal now, and we would consider it equally wrong regardless of when/where it takes place.

The show has spelled it out for us multiple times: A MARRIAGE MUST BE CONSUMMATED TO BE CONFIRMED. It is expected. It is PART of taking the vows, therefore the sex on wedding night is consented to BY the vows. No one is talking about sex that happens later on. This is a fantasy world where that situation exists, but that doesn't mean it wasn't consent. You do know what "expectation" means, right? It was UNDERSTOOD. You can't just ignore that part when transplanting the scenario in the context of our society.
this is why people shouldn't be so upset by the rape because Sansa took a calculated risk and suffered the consequence. That doesn't mean she wasn't a victim of rape by our standards

The story being told HERE (this episode) had progressed from the story being told THERE (the last episode). In THAT EPISODE, she had not been raped. Period. Not technically. Not legally. Not at all in any way.
maybe it helps give you peace of mind to pretend that she wasn't raped? but that's what the writers intended to convey

It wasn't rape. As I have said before, it had all of the emotional impact of her being raped, but it that doesn't make it TECHNICALLY rape.
it was just as bad as rape but it wasn't rape? :rolleyes: how about we call this spade a spade

As far as we know it was within her expectations and that is precisely why she sucked it up and didn't speak up or undeniably revoke her consent.
or she didn't speak up or undeniably revoke consent because she lives in a world where that has never been a legitimate option for her in such situations. Plus the moment she proves she's actually trying to play the Boltons and not play their game is the moment she's dead.

"Assaulted?" So now we are assuming that doggy-style is assault? The bruises are from another episode and we had no reason to assume that he buggered her (or that the choice of orifice changes anything).
rape and sexual assault are generally synonymous, rape can be tender and loving by the rapist but that doesn't make it any less rape, albeit likely a whole lot less traumatizing than what Sansa suffered as it was pretty clear that the show's intention was to convey brutal sexual assault without actually showing it (that, I would argue, would be taking it too far)

Remember this?

It sounds like I'm in the right place to discuss this particular brand of idiocy. "It's rape because she made a face!" :rolleyes: She made a face because it was a tough pill to swallow and she knew that when she consented.
humans with properly functioning brains and adept in social interaction are able to determine the difference between tears and cries of joy and those of distress

...except that somehow all of the actual facts end up being on the "not rape" side of the issue.
except that you're wrong about the facts and about what constitutes rape
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,267
282
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Just guessing, but I suspect later like episode 9 or 10 the high sparrow might find his purity is questioned over something and that young guy who is his enforcer with the mark on his forehead might turn on him, killing him. That's like be the way to get out of some situation where it looks like he's got the upper hand.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,250
3
0
upon further review, i agree.

could be theon's gift to ramsay

btw, next episode is "hardhome". sounds like where sansa is, aka "miserytown"
From episode 5 we learn from an exchange between Jon and Tormund that Hardhome is where most of the remaining free folk are, and its where Jon and Tormund are preparing to go and round them up and bring them back south of the wall, borrowing ships from Stannis to help accomplish the task.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,525
42
86
Only 3 episodes left in the season! :(

KT
oooooohhhhhh fffffuuuuuuuudddddddggggggggeeeeeeee.......

This show needs to sacrifice some production quality for additional episodes per season. These dragons are never going to make it to Westeros.

At least I'm enjoying this High Sparrow a lot! I said in past seasons my wish was for the white walkers to come down and take out all the nobles so the commoners can just live their lives in peace. Now I have a second chance at the same end goal with this new guy! Granted while I don't approve of his anti-brothel stance, I most definitely do approve of this anti-nobility stance! We'll take care of the latter, then deal with bringing back the brothels.

I'm just wondering where the heck did Varys go to? We haven't seen him since Tyrion was kidnapped. Guessing they'll meet up next episode? I'd assume he kept on his way to Mareen (spelling?).
 

DixyCrat

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,758
340
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oooooohhhhhh fffffuuuuuuuudddddddggggggggeeeeeeee.......

This show needs to sacrifice some production quality for additional episodes per season. These dragons are never going to make it to Westeros.

At least I'm enjoying this High Sparrow a lot! I said in past seasons my wish was for the white walkers to come down and take out all the nobles so the commoners can just live their lives in peace. Now I have a second chance at the same end goal with this new guy! Granted while I don't approve of his anti-brothel stance, I most definitely do approve of this anti-nobility stance! We'll take care of the latter, then deal with bringing back the brothels.

I'm just wondering where the heck did Varys go to? We haven't seen him since Tyrion was kidnapped. Guessing they'll meet up next episode? I'd assume he kept on his way to Mareen (spelling?).
I imagine a boat + a short walk + slaver boat straight-there is faster than a box w/ people walking.

I expect Varys will set shit strait and set Dany across the narrow sea by the end of the season.

Also, are we all just expecting that everyone convicted by the high sparrow is going to be killed? Perhaps there are other punishments of atonement when you 'admit your sin', like having your titties slapped with an electric eel while you're pissed on by fat woman?*

bunnyf This argument sounds a lot like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1lc6KASWg

*am starting cult: fat women w/ superb bladder control get in free.
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
23,562
611
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OK, clearly you were never taught what rape is. I can't believe I have to post this, but...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape
noun
1.
unlawful sexual intercourse or any other sexual penetration of the vagina, anus, or mouth of another person, with or without force, by a sex organ, other body part, or foreign object, without the consent of the victim.
Note that victim need not be physically forced for the sex to be nonconsensual.
Which has been the basis of my argument: Consent. What point are you trying to make here?

Now let's say the rest of your argument holds water and she only resisted after Ramsay made Theon stay. At that point the threat comes out, and it does indeed change her behavior (she starts to take her clothes off). That makes it sex under threat without the consent of the victim (particularly after how she called Tyrion kind and gentle for not touching her, trying to entice Ramsay to do the same).
She didn't resist. She hesitated. She didn't hesitate with Tyrian. She hesitated with Ramsay ONLY because of her assumption that they needed Theon to leave. She clearly indicated why she was hesitating to Ramsay, who then clarified that Theon was to stay. She resumed taking her clothes off when he made it clear that he still expected her to with Theon present. Her behavior didn't "change."

If you need to argue with the dictionary to boost your ego, then please continue.
The dictionary supports me. The crux of my argument is that she gave consent and never revoked it.

Good, you at least understand she was "raped", now you're just confused about semantics.
Having the same emotional resonance as rape doesn't make it rape.

maybe you're hard of hearing? Sansa was crying out in obvious distress. And, ignoring the fact that Sam initiated things by asking Gilly to stay, when Sam had his own moment of distress, Gilly stopped and asked if Sam was ok, double-checked, and only continued when Sam confirmed. Ramsay did none of this, and continued upon a course of action that made Theon/Reek cry.
I guess he raped Theon/Reek then.

but it was rape... Sansa's noncompliance when Ramsay commanded her to take off her clothes (something Tyrion stopped Sansa from doing on her own accord), Ramsay then taking her forcibly when she didn't comply to his satisfaction, Sansa's own obvious cries of distress with clear negative connotation (i.e. not merely an uncomfortable annoyance), and of course Theon weeping at the sight of what he was witnessing instead of just looking uncomfortable in an awkward situation
We've established that it wasn't "non compliance." It was hesitation due to Theon's presence. Rough sex happens without rape all the time. Sansa's cries change nothing because she knew she wouldn't enjoy it when she agreed to it, never cried for him to stop, and it is expected to hurt for virgins. She sucked it up to bear it as best she could.

of course, we agree here, but while she was apparently willing to consummate the marriage, she was clearly not ok with how Ramsay wanted to go about it. That's all that it takes. Ramsay might be legal in terms of Westerosi standards, but not by modern IRL ones.
"Clearly?" Because she winced and whimpered? Just because she knew it would be rough and agreed to do it doesn't mean she also has to be able to do it without wincing and whimpering. No one expected her to giggle, tear her own clothes off, and jump on top of him just because she gave consent, so that is not what removes consent.

Again, I'll use the Tyrion example - Tyrion gave Sansa the power to make the choice that has been denied to her in this world even though it was completely within Tyrion's right to take her and have his way with her as her husband in such a realm.
He sure did, but the expectation that the bedding ceremony (consummation) goes along with the wedding vows was on FULL display.

Again, putting yourself in a situation that increases your chance of getting raped does not mean you consent to any rape that happens.
That is misconstruing her choice. She didn't just put herself in a situation, she chose EXACTLY that situation. It did not deviate from her expectation in any way except that Theon was there. She did not remove consent because Theon was there. Theon's presence does not make it rape.

coercion is a factor in rape, proving that Sansa was unable to give consent to Ramsay's sexual acts would be easy to prove.
Because he expressed his distaste for repeating things with no specific threat? It seems that you are unfamiliar with the burden of proof required by our laws.

I will 100% agree that Ramsay was within his rights in Westeros, but that doesn't make it not rape in our eyes. Just like how slavery was considered justified at times in the past, now most civilized minds find it abhorrent.
She consented. That makes it "not rape" in our eyes. The method of consent (expectation of bedding ceremony) doesn't directly transplant to our laws, but it's plain and obvious that she knew, shared that expectation, agreed/consented to it, and followed through without ever removing her consent.

the problem here is that such a contract pretty much could not exist in modern society, it would be like signing a contract to be someone's slave, it just wouldn't hold up because we have laws that prevent it. It doesn't matter if it was legal then, it wouldn't be legal now, and we would consider it equally wrong regardless of when/where it takes place.
Of course it could. They aren't saying "you are required to have sex if you marry the guy," they are saying "your marriage is not valid until you do." You can still remove consent, but it is akin to saying "I don't" at a wedding and calling it all off. If two consenting adults decided that they wouldn't make their marriage legal until after consummation then the marriage ceremony is a meaningless in the eyes of the law until they submit for their marriage license.

this is why people shouldn't be so upset by the rape because Sansa took a calculated risk and suffered the consequence. That doesn't mean she wasn't a victim of rape by our standards
How do you know she suffered any more than she expected that night (next episode not withstanding)?

maybe it helps give you peace of mind to pretend that she wasn't raped? but that's what the writers intended to convey

it was just as bad as rape but it wasn't rape? :rolleyes: how about we call this spade a spade
Hanging is as bad as beheading. No one said it had to be happy or emotionally better just because she consented. The writers have conveyed many things that are as bad as rape but which were not rape.

or she didn't speak up or undeniably revoke consent because she lives in a world where that has never been a legitimate option for her in such situations. Plus the moment she proves she's actually trying to play the Boltons and not play their game is the moment she's dead.
Incorrect. She could have asked Petyr to take her right back to the Eyrie. He gave her the choice. She could have told the Boltons "no" or even stalled by saying that she wasn't ready. She could have accepted help when it was offered both by the Northerners (that would have played out differently before marriage/consent). She had options. She chose one.

humans with properly functioning brains and adept in social interaction are able to determine the difference between tears and cries of joy and those of distress
No one thought that they were tears of joy. We knew it wasn't going to be easy just like she knew it wasn't going to be easy. She went through with it anyway. As far as we know, that night was no harder than she expected when she agreed to it. Don't forget that she was a virgin which also means some pain whether she was in distress or not. We know she was in distress, but even she expected that when giving consent.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,285
87
86
Its a TV show afterall guys.

:rolleyes:

I really doubt either of you guys are lawyers or anything anyway so what a bunch of drivel.

You guys are like foaming at the mouth arguing over a fictional TV show if you keep it up somebody might get concerned and take you for a rabies shot. :awe:
 
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DixyCrat

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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CZroe, this was settled by Skel at the end of his post:
DC:Again, it's not sexual assault if you agree to it and never object to it: even if you don't like it.

Bunnyf: Basically you're saying that if someone tortures you, its not torture if you don't object to it.

Skel: yes it's true. It's not sexual assault if you agree to it, let alone not objecting to it. One would have to object for it to be assault. Otherwise bad sex would be grounds for jail. What's the difference legally between flogging a person who gets off on it and the one that fears it? It's all about what someone agrees to.
Continuing the tl;dr arguments serves only to show how unwilling to listen to the basic point some people are when they 'feel' a particular way (and clutter up the thread). You can't make people rational :(

Oh yeah. This season added the newest player for the Iron Throne in a while.

Most interesting post all season. You know, now that I think about it, the threat of a popular uprising and mass beheading of everyone calling themselves lord or lady would be a very fitting ending...
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
23,562
611
126
Its a TV show afterall guys.

:rolleyes:

I really doubt either of you guys are lawyers or anything anyway so what a bunch of drivel.

You guys are like foaming at the mouth arguing over a fictional TV show if you keep it up somebody might get concerned and take you for a rabies shot. :awe:
We'll see if that helps.

CZroe, this was settled by Skel at the end of his post:


Continuing the tl;lr arguments serves only to show how unwilling to listen to the basic point some people are when they 'feel' a particular way. You can't make people rational :(
I made the same point as Skel. Repeatedly. The ones screaming "RAPE!" have not made a valid counter argument yet, forcing me to address the minutia of why it was consent. Who's "unwilling to listen?"
 
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DixyCrat

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,758
340
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So how do we think the encounter with the wild-lings is going to go for Jon?

Will our plucky adventurer become the king beyond the wall AND the lord master of the night's watch?

v- I edited to focus on topic, your quote of me is legit and works to preserve the conversation -v
 
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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
23,562
611
126
^they are; i'm just saying that it's wasted typing/thread-space at this point. Everyone who can do math knows the score; everyone who loves hugging fluffy bunnies knows math doesn't matter to them.
I hope so. I will take a breather.
 

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