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Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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smakme7757

Golden Member
Nov 20, 2010
1,488
1
81
A longer weapon allows you to stay further away from your opponent and poke at him.

It helps negate the Mountains inherent advantage of massive sword and long arms.
Yes. I agree :)

It's why I wrote that Oberyn's skill with a spear is what gave him a nice advantage against the mountain.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
102,136
16,351
136
Castration doesn't change urges. It just stops fatherhood.

The point was he wasn't fully emasculated meaning he still has a working dick.
actually, chopping your balls off very much reduces testosterone output in human males, very drastically reducing urges.

nothing about that will stop blood rushing to a dick, creating a woody. Perhaps you are confusing the appearance of a stiffy in your fixed animals for a sexual urge?
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
26,300
781
126
A longer weapon allows you to stay further away from your opponent and poke at him.

It helps negate the Mountains inherent advantage of massive sword and long arms.
but how effective are spears vs plate?
wouldn't the wooden pole snap before you have enuf force to pierce plate?

and what kind of armor was the mountain wearing anyway? it looked like studded leather.

as for not being mobile in full plate, remember in season 1 he went toe to toe w/Sandor after the joust.
Sandor really wanted to kill him, yet didn't even inflict a scratch.

so mountains skill = sandor.

they should fire the fight choreographer for that scene!
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
actually, chopping your balls off very much reduces testosterone output in human males, very drastically reducing urges.

nothing about that will stop blood rushing to a dick, creating a woody. Perhaps you are confusing the appearance of a stiffy in your fixed animals for a sexual urge?
Castration is not an effective tool at stop urges. This is a problem that has arisen in child molesters and rapists. They are forced chemical castration, and while it removes the tools required to perform their vile acts, it doesn't remove the desire.

but how effective are spears vs plate?
wouldn't the wooden pole snap before you have enuf force to pierce plate?

and what kind of armor was the mountain wearing anyway? it looked like studded leather.

as for not being mobile in full plate, remember in season 1 he went toe to toe w/Sandor after the joust.
Sandor really wanted to kill him, yet didn't even inflict a scratch.

so mountains skill = sandor.

they should fire the fight choreographer for that scene!
Plate isn't fully covering. There are gaps and weak points. It was extremely effective against slashing, and spear / pike thrusts to a point, but a hard enough thrust could penetrate. Also, full plate was generally only worn by cavalry; 3/4s plate (leaving the lower legs exposed) was generally worn by those on foot. Plus, armor was not as movement restricting as most believe (which is due to fantasy literature).

And, nobody really said the Mountain was a very skilled swordsmen. More that he was extremely strong, violent and "quicker than you'd expect".
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,670
6
0
but how effective are spears vs plate?
wouldn't the wooden pole snap before you have enuf force to pierce plate?
I would think it would be at least as good for penetrating plate as a sword. With the added benefit of being able to do it from a greater distance.

they should fire the fight choreographer for that scene!
Have to agree there. The Mountain really came off as a sucky fighter in the scene.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,299
349
126
Openly declaring that he was going to kill Lannisters and being defiant in front of Tywinn and his general air of invincibility. A calculating ruthless man would do as Tywinn does and hide his true emotion and most importantly his intent. Dont tell everyone what your gonna do. This is the reason I think Daario wont last long hopefully since he and Oberyn shared that trait. People like Varis and LF who hide their intention and desires are gonna live. We saw the first Chinc in the armour of LF when Sansa got the better of him. I also see Sansa as now owning LF after saving his life. If you saw LF face it was pleasure but also a little bit of fear.

Oberyn stabbed a lannister the day he got to Kings landing as well. He also thought about revenge and implication of tywinn before actually defeating his enemy. A man known as the most ruthless bloody and dirty fighter and brawler. Its also well known that men live for hours sometimes days with chest wounds though they eventually succumb. Hilaria knew the importance of the situation and was shitting her pants accordingly. The second I saw Oberyn Look at her and take his eyes off his opponent I knew he was screwed.
Still don't buy the rationalization. Why would Ellaria understand the dangers at hand better than a battle veteran. I think if GRRM wanted Oberyn to die, he should have written Oberyn differently and perhaps changed the backstory. His sister Elia died over a decade prior. This isn't Oberyn rushing to get revenge, it shows patience. He also continues to try and get the confession when he can kill the Mountain right then and there, shows further patience and collection under pressure.

I'll leave it be now, he's dead. Not every reader or viewer can be pleased.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
102,136
16,351
136
And, nobody really said the Mountain was a very skilled swordsmen. More that he was extremely strong, violent and "quicker than you'd expect".

That is the part I take issue with. In fact this dude is slower than you'd expect. It also looks like it's the first time he's holding his sword.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
That is the part I take issue with. In fact this dude is slower than you'd expect. It also looks like it's the first time he's holding his sword.
He moved pretty quickly for a guy in plate armor swinging around a 10lb+ sword. A traditional great sword was around 2-3kg, and since the Mountain likely didn't use a traditional sized sword, his was probably closer to 5kg. Now, that doesn't sound like a lot of weight, but I want you to pick up a 10lb stick and try and being remotely graceful with it.
 

Train

Lifer
Jun 22, 2000
13,688
8
81
www.bing.com
Spear vs Sword. The spear always breaks.

As soon as the fight started I was like "the giant sword will snap the spear". The spear actually lasted longer than I thought.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,561
8
0
That is the part I take issue with. In fact this dude is slower than you'd expect. It also looks like it's the first time he's holding his sword.
You guys have to realize that sword was twice the size of Neds sword which was huge enough to make two swords. The juxtaposition of the skill of the spear and the aggression of the bastard sword I thought was really effective. Its impossible to throw around a sword that big with finesse and quickness.The problem the mountain had was that he never faced a fighter using that technique since its from Essos and the time Oberyn spent there. The Mountain was portrayed a bit oafish this scene up until the end and I would have liked a little more technique other than Oberyns circular attack style. They should have just kept the big dude that looked like Bluto from Popeye.
 

momeNt

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2011
9,299
349
126
The juxtaposition of the skill of the spear and the aggression of the bastard sword I thought was really effective[/B].
The Mountain uses a greatsword, probably something longer than a greatsword even.

Jon was given a bastard sword by Jeor Mormont, which is longer than a traditional longsword but shorter than a greatsword, you can use either one or two handed grip when wielding it.
 

radhak

Senior member
Aug 10, 2011
843
14
81
He moved pretty quickly for a guy in plate armor swinging around a 10lb+ sword. A traditional great sword was around 2-3kg, and since the Mountain likely didn't use a traditional sized sword, his was probably closer to 5kg. Now, that doesn't sound like a lot of weight, but I want you to pick up a 10lb stick and try and being remotely graceful with it.
There's the 'story', and there's real life.

In real life it's hard to find a huge guy who's also fast and furious. But if there were one, he'd be one to fear. And unique. Think Lebron James.

In the story, the mountain is one such unique character. Everybody's scared of him across the realm, and nobody wants to cross him. He's proven himself time and again in battle and won some tremendous repute for it. Which means he can wield that 5 kg (or even, 10kg?) sword like nobody else can, and has beat down to submission many great warriors in the past.

You and I may not be able to do this, but he can, such as how the story is written. To show this on screen, they should not give an actual 10kg sword to the actor - just make it appear so! Use cardboard or styrofoam! The character needed to strike terror and awe in the audience, and he did not do that. At best, he came off bumbling and a joke, particularly after the buildup. I expected a lot more cutting and slashing, a lot more close calls for Oberyn. But it fizzled out. I have seen better fights. Much better.

The idea was to show that Oberyn was a great fighter, a class apart. To do that, the mountain should have been seen as a really dangerous opponent. Apart from the brutal ending (which was all GRRM, not the fight coordinator), nothing in the fight told us either the first, or the second.
 
Mar 10, 2005
14,648
2
0
they should fire the fight choreographer for that scene!
Have to agree there. The Mountain really came off as a sucky fighter in the scene.
for sure, he didn't look very good. but how much of that was the actor's limits?

i re-watched s01e05 (mountain versus hound) thinking that fight/actor was way better, but he really wasn't. it's shorter, he's opposite rory mccann so he doesn't appear as slow and clumsy, and i think that fight was edited to hide the big man's shortcomings more effectively. he certainly looked like a better fit for the role, however.



edit:
right-handed season 1, lefty season 4. yet more inigo montoya in this fight!
 
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Feb 6, 2007
16,439
1
81
There's the 'story', and there's real life.

In real life it's hard to find a huge guy who's also fast and furious. But if there were one, he'd be one to fear. And unique. Think Lebron James.

In the story, the mountain is one such unique character. Everybody's scared of him across the realm, and nobody wants to cross him. He's proven himself time and again in battle and won some tremendous repute for it. Which means he can wield that 5 kg (or even, 10kg?) sword like nobody else can, and has beat down to submission many great warriors in the past.

You and I may not be able to do this, but he can, such as how the story is written. To show this on screen, they should not give an actual 10kg sword to the actor - just make it appear so! Use cardboard or styrofoam! The character needed to strike terror and awe in the audience, and he did not do that. At best, he came off bumbling and a joke, particularly after the buildup. I expected a lot more cutting and slashing, a lot more close calls for Oberyn. But it fizzled out. I have seen better fights. Much better.

The idea was to show that Oberyn was a great fighter, a class apart. To do that, the mountain should have been seen as a really dangerous opponent. Apart from the brutal ending (which was all GRRM, not the fight coordinator), nothing in the fight told us either the first, or the second.
That was the biggest problem with the character; as he's described, there's literally no one on Earth who can actually play him. I haven't read the books, but even in the show, people talk about him as though he's 8 feet tall and 500 pounds of muscle. That person doesn't exist anywhere, at any point in history. Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is a large person, but he's "only" 6'9" and 420 pounds. Other giant wrestlers turned actors like The Great Khali or Nathan Jones are around 7', 350 pounds. That's large, but it's nowhere near the dimensions of the character they're trying to portray. So they've created a character who is impossible to do justice to without using CGI, and then dutifully ignored CGI in favor of obvious forced perspective shots that don't really work in a battle sequence. So, yeah, he comes across as "big, but kind of underwhelming."
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
15,164
422
126
The mountain is known by brute strength and violence. With the strength he's able to carry an extra heavy armor and a huge sword which normal sword fighters will have a difficult time with, since the strength doesn't make him tire easily (as in Bronn's defense of Tyrion) and being able to move as fast as if it was a normal armor.

I was watching the episode with a good friend of mine and she jumped up in the air when the mountain snatches Oberyn. So the chock effect was definitely there.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
That was the biggest problem with the character; as he's described, there's literally no one on Earth who can actually play him. I haven't read the books, but even in the show, people talk about him as though he's 8 feet tall and 500 pounds of muscle. That person doesn't exist anywhere, at any point in history. Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is a large person, but he's "only" 6'9" and 420 pounds. Other giant wrestlers turned actors like The Great Khali or Nathan Jones are around 7', 350 pounds. That's large, but it's nowhere near the dimensions of the character they're trying to portray. So they've created a character who is impossible to do justice to without using CGI, and then dutifully ignored CGI in favor of obvious forced perspective shots that don't really work in a battle sequence. So, yeah, he comes across as "big, but kind of underwhelming."
Ever heard of Andre the Giant? 7'4, billed at 520lbs. That guy was a monster. I would imagine the Mountain was probably someone similar to that, had he been a real person. And the average person is a foot and a half shorter than that.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,243
110
116
Ever heard of Andre the Giant? 7'4, billed at 520lbs. That guy was a monster. I would imagine the Mountain was probably someone similar to that, had he been a real person. And the average person is a foot and a half shorter than that.
Yep, Andre the Giant was who I first thought of. Would have been weird to have essentially been seeing Inigo Montoya vs. Fezzik in that fight though. :hmm:

KT
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
When I heard the comments about the mountain's speed I always took that as quick for someone his size. That doesn't mean fast at all, it could be relatively slow.

Producers didn't have much choice here, I'm OK with that. They could have picked someone better though, or maybe put a little more effort into the training. Who knows, maybe the actor did exactly what the director wanted...
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,243
110
116
Stoked for another Neil Marshall episode this Sunday. Love that guy.

KT
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
102,136
16,351
136
That was the biggest problem with the character; as he's described, there's literally no one on Earth who can actually play him. I haven't read the books, but even in the show, people talk about him as though he's 8 feet tall and 500 pounds of muscle. That person doesn't exist anywhere, at any point in history. Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson is a large person, but he's "only" 6'9" and 420 pounds. Other giant wrestlers turned actors like The Great Khali or Nathan Jones are around 7', 350 pounds. That's large, but it's nowhere near the dimensions of the character they're trying to portray. So they've created a character who is impossible to do justice to without using CGI, and then dutifully ignored CGI in favor of obvious forced perspective shots that don't really work in a battle sequence. So, yeah, he comes across as "big, but kind of underwhelming."
You don't really need CGI, though. The magic of cameras can make a RL imp like Tom Cruise appear far taller than the ~4'6" he is. ....

A pro wrestler would have been a great cast for that role: size, agility, and typically very good acting chops. The Rock would have been great, but probably too much baggage for that role (he's well-known, the audience expects something from him). What about a guy like The Undertaker? Dude is a freak. ....he's still alive, isn't he?

You don't even need to force "awkward" or obvious camera angles. Compressing distance with a telephoto lens is a neat trick, and allows standard medium shots. You can also do a lot with set construction and design, and these things have been done since the days of Meliese in the earliest years of film making.

Go back and look at the LoTR scene at the beginning of Fellowship--Frodo riding with Gandalf in that cart. Or Gandalf in the Hobbit holes. Those weren't CGI, actually. The cart was constructed of two disconnected pieces with a large actual distance between Magneto and MalcolmintheMiddle, and shot straight on. Yes, this kind of trickery involves a lot of choreography and timing, so in the end it's probably wiser to just hire some idiot and hope he can swing a sword with too little fuss when your budget already limits you to about 20 seconds of dragons over an entire season....but sometimes better casting and more effort with staging goes a long way in the final product.

Look, it's not the worst thing ever. It doesn't ruin the series for me--it's just glaringly "off." :\
 
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KLin

Lifer
Feb 29, 2000
29,418
29
91
You don't really need CGI, though. The magic of cameras can make a RL imp like Tom Cruise appear far taller than the ~4'6" he is. ....

A pro wrestler would have been a great cast for that role: size, agility, and typically very good acting chops. The Rock would have been great, but probably too much baggage for that role (he's well-known, the audience expects something from him). What about a guy like The Undertaker? Dude is a freak. ....he's still alive, isn't he?

You don't even need to force "awkward" or obvious camera angles. Compressing distance with a telephoto lens is a neat trick, and allows standard medium shots. You can also do a lot with set construction and design, and these things have been done since the days of Meliese in the earliest years of film making.

Go back and look at the LoTR scene at the beginning of Fellowship--Frodo riding with Gandalf in that cart. Or Gandalf in the Hobbit holes. Those weren't CGI, actually. The cart was constructed of two disconnected pieces with a large actual distance between Magneto and MalcolmintheMiddle, and shot straight on. Yes, this kind of trickery involves a lot of choreography and timing, so in the end it's probably wiser to just hire some idiot and hope he can swing a sword with too little fuss when your budget already limits you to about 20 seconds of dragons over an entire season....but sometimes better casting and more effort with staging goes a long way in the final product.

Look, it's not the worst thing ever. It doesn't ruin the series for me--it's just glaringly "off." :\
Frodo != MalcolmintheMiddle lulz
 

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