Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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dennilfloss

Past Lifer 1957-2014 In Memoriam
Oct 21, 1999
30,550
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0
dennilfloss.blogspot.com
For those wondering why there's a trial. First, there has to be a look of justice. The king was killed. This much an affront cannot be ignored by the Hand of the king. Tywin is very bright and pragmatic and sees facts, words and intents for what they are. I don't think he's in on the plot but he sees advantages in the result that it puts a more malleable and not psychotic Tommen on the throne. Still, Tywin has to find out who really did it as I do not think for a second he believes Tyrion's guilty. He knows his son is too bright for this. As the person who engineered the Red Wedding, he understands fully that any person or group that can plot and successfully kill a Lannister (Baratheon in name only) king and get away with it is a threat to all the family and a threat to kill Tywin himself. Thus he needs a genuine trial and some time to allocate the proper resources (e.g. Varys's insight and little spiders) to assess the people and the situation in order to identify the real culprits and remove the threat, with extreme prejudice I suppose.
 

benzylic

Golden Member
Jun 12, 2006
1,547
0
0
This website has an interactive map of Westeros. It shows character paths by episode, kind of neat. Just make sure to turn it over to episodes and not chapters. Clicking on towns takes you to that Westeros site, be careful there though I spoiled the Red Wedding for myself by going one click to far.

http://quartermaester.info/

On a side note was there any particular reason Arya picked House Tulley or did she just guess?
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
50,243
110
116
This website has an interactive map of Westeros. It shows character paths by episode, kind of neat. Just make sure to turn it over to episodes and not chapters. Clicking on towns takes you to that Westeros site, be careful there though I spoiled the Red Wedding for myself by going one click to far.

http://quartermaester.info/

On a side note was there any particular reason Arya picked House Tulley or did she just guess?
That was her Mom's house, correct? I assume that's why she picked it. Saying Stark would probably raise too many questions.

KT
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,040
15,169
136
Wasn't it Little Finger who said something like "Chaos is a Ladder" to Varys?

edit: found it :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRS8a8HjqFs
The Climb.

One of the best episodes of the series, I think, due to the tight writing regarding the title and themes covered. (here, the wildlings finally climb the wall to bring chaos to Westeros; but the real "climb" in the episode refers to that brilliant speech re: The ladder, which is, at least to this point, the central metaphor of the entire series.)

Fitting that Little Finger gives it, as he seems to understand it better than everyone else. Or, at least, the complete lack of scruples needed to best exploit it.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
The Climb.

One of the best episodes of the series, I think, due to the tight writing regarding the title and themes covered. (here, the wildlings finally climb the wall to bring chaos to Westeros; but the real "climb" in the episode refers to that brilliant speech re: The ladder, which is, at least to this point, the central metaphor of the entire series.)

Fitting that Little Finger gives it, as he seems to understand it better than everyone else. Or, at least, the complete lack of scruples needed to best exploit it.
Little Finger also stands the most to gain from ascending said latter. He isn't of noble birth or particularly good at anything. Sadly, for the realm, Varys seems to be the only person who can truly see Little Finger for who he is and the depth of his ambition.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,040
15,169
136
Now that we know the necklace's origins, did Oleanna take a gem and why?
How does that fit in to current theories?
I wondered this a few posts up, and while I still think Oleanna could be involved--though I am leaning almost 100% towards Little Finger only--I am actually thinking that the missing gem on the necklace was simply a gaff:

--the scene between Sansa and Little Finger on the boat may have been shot earlier than the wedding scene (not unusual at all, obviously, depending on the locations of the shots), and the missing gem that we have all been focusing on last week, was only missing because LF smashed it in a later scene. oops? ;)

I want to go back to the Little Finger scene and more closely examine it. Is it the same gem that was missing earlier? can we count all gems in that scene?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,040
15,169
136
Little Finger also stands the most to gain from ascending said latter. He isn't of noble birth or particularly good at anything. Sadly, for the realm, Varys seems to be the only person who can truly see Little Finger for who he is and the depth of his ambition.
Oh, I think Ned Stark saw that too (eventually). :D
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,567
3
0
I want to go back to the Little Finger scene and more closely examine it. Is it the same gem that was missing earlier? can we count all gems in that scene?
I went back and looked at it again and there were six stones on the necklace when LF took it off Sansa and when he smashed one of the stones.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
101,040
15,169
136
I went back and looked at it again and there were six stones on the necklace when LF took it off Sansa and when he smashed one of the stones.
yep, same.

pause at exactly 6:21 in, when his dagger smashes the glass gem, and you see another missing spot to the right of the gem he smashes. pause at every frame, and I can only see 6 gems.

So, there goes my guess.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
I wondered this a few posts up, and while I still think Oleanna could be involved--though I am leaning almost 100% towards Little Finger only--I am actually thinking that the missing gem on the necklace was simply a gaff:

--the scene between Sansa and Little Finger on the boat may have been shot earlier than the wedding scene (not unusual at all, obviously, depending on the locations of the shots), and the missing gem that we have all been focusing on last week, was only missing because LF smashed it in a later scene. oops? ;)

I want to go back to the Little Finger scene and more closely examine it. Is it the same gem that was missing earlier? can we count all gems in that scene?
Wasn't the gem there one scene and missing the next, both scenes at the wedding? I thought they were but can't recall for sure. They wouldn't have changed locations between shooting scenes for the wedding with all the extras. Good point on the gem crushing scene, it was the far right one (facing the wearer). I'll check later.

edit: guess not. I think them missing gem is important somehow, could be unrelated to the poison, but that looks less likely now since Little Finger knew about the poison and gem..
 

ghost recon88

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2005
6,209
1
76
yep, same.

pause at exactly 6:21 in, when his dagger smashes the glass gem, and you see another missing spot to the right of the gem he smashes. pause at every frame, and I can only see 6 gems.

So, there goes my guess.
Why did he smash just one of the stones though?
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
Administrator
Nov 30, 2005
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So what you are all saying then is Little Finger set up everything with the necklace and the fool, as part of a plan with the Tyrelles, or at least with Oleanna, to kill Joffrey? Still seems like a weird plan from the Tyrelles' perspective; I guess there more than enough reasons to want Joffs out of the picture, I just feel like the timing is still weird and Oleanna and Marge both made reference to the fact it would have been better if the marriage had been consummated.

KT
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
So what you are all saying then is Little Finger set up everything with the necklace and the fool, as part of a plan with the Tyrelles, or at least with Oleanna, to kill Joffrey? Still seems like a weird plan from the Tyrelles' perspective; I guess there more than enough reasons to want Joffs out of the picture, I just feel like the timing is still weird and Oleanna and Marge both made reference to the fact it would have been better if the marriage had been consummated.

KT
Why are you assuming the Tyrelles are involved?
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
So what you are all saying then is Little Finger set up everything with the necklace and the fool, as part of a plan with the Tyrelles, or at least with Oleanna, to kill Joffrey? Still seems like a weird plan from the Tyrelles' perspective; I guess there more than enough reasons to want Joffs out of the picture, I just feel like the timing is still weird and Oleanna and Marge both made reference to the fact it would have been better if the marriage had been consummated.

KT
While it might have been more convenient at the time, it could have caused a power struggle against the Lannisters. If instead Margaery were to marry the next in line, who was far easier to control than Joffrey, it would solidify their position much easier. Oleanna wasn't exactly shocked by what happened, nor was she exactly upset by the new circumstances to which they put Margaery on the throne.

However, it could be that she was simply examining the necklace, as it was a fake. Perhaps, as was shown previously in the show, her eye for jewelry had her questioning the necklace, so she was going to examine the jewel.

We know Little Finger was involved, but someone still had to poison the king. He couldn't have really acted alone with just the drunkard. Someone else had to have access to the actual poisoning.

EDIT: Also, you have to look at from a perspective of what is going to gain you the most. Who stands the most to gain from Joffrey dying right after consummating the marriage? Everyone would point to Magaery as the culprit. However, since she didn't gain much, nobody suspects her family. So, then you have to look at see who gains the most to ally with Little Finger?
 
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GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,301
1,990
126
Why are you assuming the Tyrelles are involved?
It's natural. Olenna was grilling Sansa about what sort of person Joffrey was and she took the fact that Sansa viewed him as a monster completely in stride. As Olenna is one of the sneakiest people and one of the true masters of the Game of Thrones, it would seem odd that she was sending her granddaughter off to be married to a monster without even a raised eyebrow. She has plenty of motive to want to see Joffrey dead to protect Margaery and she has the knowledge that the Lannisters still desperately need the south's allegiance, so the fact that the marriage wasn't consummated was not such a stumbling block. It's not like Tywin is going to forget that they need Highgarden.
 

Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
Isn't the old chick a Tyrelle? Do I have my house names messed up?

KT
You have it right, and it's pretty logical to think they are behind it.

Your post questioning why they would have done it for Little Finger assumed they were involved. One other post implied it as well and I was wondering if I missed a huge plot point from the episode.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,567
3
0
Lady Oleanna is no fool and having Joffrey on the throne endangers Kings Landing and her houses power by having Margary as the Queen and her eventual childrens inheritance. After seeing what one mad King did, killing Joffrey could have been seen by her as a necessity. In fact, Tywin might also have feared what a King Joffrey would do and the repercussions to his family and he and Oleanna both plotted to kill Joffrey.

Once the necessity of killing Joffrey were seen they may have turned to LF to carry out the assignation.

Another possibility is that as Master of Coin LF embezzled money from the realm. By setting it up to appear as Tyrion did it removes him as Master of Coin before he discovered things LF did. Its also possible Tywin and Oleanna already discovered what LF did. Killing Joffrey may have been the fee the Lannisters and Tyrells demanded of LF to hide his previous actions.
 

KeithTalent

Elite Member | Administrator | No Lifer
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Nov 30, 2005
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While it might have been more convenient at the time, it could have caused a power struggle against the Lannisters. If instead Margaery were to marry the next in line, who was far easier to control than Joffrey, it would solidify their position much easier. Oleanna wasn't exactly shocked by what happened, nor was she exactly upset by the new circumstances to which they put Margaery on the throne.

However, it could be that she was simply examining the necklace, as it was a fake. Perhaps, as was shown previously in the show, her eye for jewelry had her questioning the necklace, so she was going to examine the jewel.

We know Little Finger was involved, but someone still had to poison the king. He couldn't have really acted alone with just the drunkard. Someone else had to have access to the actual poisoning.

EDIT: Also, you have to look at from a perspective of what is going to gain you the most. Who stands the most to gain from Joffrey dying right after consummating the marriage? Everyone would point to Magaery as the culprit. However, since she didn't gain much, nobody suspects her family. So, then you have to look at see who gains the most to ally with Little Finger?
Fair enough on the timing, I guess I was just not really thinking about her marrying the next kid. I am still on the fence about Oleanna being involved, even though she seemed to be the one in the best place to do the actual poisoning (outside of Marge of course). Guess it will all get fleshed out soon.

You have it right, and it's pretty logical to think they are behind it.

Your post questioning why they would have done it for Little Finger assumed they were involved. One other post implied it as well and I was wondering if I missed a huge plot point from the episode.
Ah ok. Since I am not watching the Blu-rays this time around which has the pop-ups to tell you about every character and location in the scene, I sometimes lose track of who is who. Thought I had done it again. :D

KT
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,028
75
86
You have it right, and it's pretty logical to think they are behind it.

Your post questioning why they would have done it for Little Finger assumed they were involved. One other post implied it as well and I was wondering if I missed a huge plot point from the episode.
The manner in which Oleanna and Margaery were talking about her not being queen suggested she [Oleanna] was hoping, if not actively scheming, to have her marry Tommen instead. And from what Tywin was shown doing with Tommen, he seems to be far more likely to listen to influence and Tyrion said he wasn't a monster like Joffrey. So, getting rid of someone likely to abuse your grand daughter and setting her up in a much better position of power is a huge motive. Now, Little Finger had to be promised something, as he wouldn't doing this out of charity. He was the person who brought the Tyrells to the King to begin with, after all.
 

KeithTalent

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Nov 30, 2005
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If Tywin and Olenna wanted the poisoning done, I can't imagine why they would need LF involved at all. They are two of the most intelligent and resourceful individuals in the whole show, I have to think they could figure out an easy way to do it without having to promise anything to LF.

KT
 

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