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Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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I very much enjoy reading these threads, but I don't get the obsession of book readers to post and 'hint' of future events. The same people are going to be PISSED when the show finishes the story before the books are completed.
I'm resigned to the fact that the series will overtake the books, however, it is interesting to see things that the HBO series shows that cannot be shown in the book due to POV character chapters.

It's like getting a more complete version of the story despite the differences between the show and the books.

After re-watching the wedding I have my money on the old lady.
remember how she pointedly asked Sansa what kind of man Joffrey was in season 3?

I rewatched the episode and you can see how it happens. Lady Olenna plays with Sansa's hair a bit over halfway through the episode and ends up pulling a gem on of Sansa's neck. They show a clear shot of the necklace missing a gem.
good catch.




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KeithTalent

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Nov 30, 2005
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Ok, let's try this again. I think I have put the the right people on ignore now, so hopefully will be safe, but please guys, do not quote any dumbass who posts spoilers!

Anyway, glad to hear I am not the only one who found the episode and even the ending disappointing. I was worried I was just out of it from being on the tattoo table for 6 hours, but it seems the episode was pretty underwhelming on the whole.

Am very glad to see stupid Shea is gone, though I am not 100% convinced this is actually the case and I loved how they kept showing Varys' reaction throughout the wedding stuff; hilarious.

The Bran stuff was boring/annoying as always, though at least we do get to see Hodor and the deer saying "Hodor" was amusing. I do think the poisoning felt very anti-climactic; I was hoping for a much bloodier and painful death for Joffrey.

I have to think SMOGZINN is bang-on regarding the poisoning; it makes no sense for them to do it before consummation. Maybe it was Sansa? She did have the goblet in her hand briefly I really do hope it is her. Would be nice for her to get some revenge.

I do wish poor Tyrion could catch a break. Seems like he is in for some real hell the next few episodes. :(

KT
 

raasco

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2009
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Ok, let's try this again. I think I have put the the right people on ignore now, so hopefully will be safe, but please guys, do not quote any dumbass who posts spoilers!

Anyway, glad to hear I am not the only one who found the episode and even the ending disappointing. I was worried I was just out of it from being on the tattoo table for 6 hours, but it seems the episode was pretty underwhelming on the whole.

Am very glad to see stupid Shea is gone, though I am not 100% convinced this is actually the case and I loved how they kept showing Varys' reaction throughout the wedding stuff; hilarious.

The Bran stuff was boring/annoying as always, though at least we do get to see Hodor and the deer saying "Hodor" was amusing. I do think the poisoning felt very anti-climactic; I was hoping for a much bloodier and painful death for Joffrey.

I have to think SMOGZINN is bang-on regarding the poisoning; it makes no sense for them to do it before consummation. Maybe it was Sansa? She did have the goblet in her hand briefly I really do hope it is her. Would be nice for her to get some revenge.

I do wish poor Tyrion could catch a break. Seems like he is in for some real hell the next few episodes. :(

KT

The poisoning must have something to do with The Fool and the necklace that he gave Sansa to wear. He was there in a hurry when Joffrey hit the ground.
 

KeithTalent

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The poisoning must have something to do with The Fool and the necklace that he gave Sansa to wear. He was there in a hurry when Joffrey hit the ground.
Yeah, my first thought was it was the fool since he was johnny on the spot to get Sansa out of there.

KT
 
Mar 10, 2005
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olenna, as she plucks the jewel from sansa's neck:

"war is war, but killing a man at a wedding....horrid. what sort of monster would do such a thing?"

:D
 

Xonim

Golden Member
Jul 13, 2011
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I think I'm going to rewatch both episodes sometime this week, it's driving me crazy that I didn't pick up on anything as to WHO it was. I knew how this episode was going to end due to a series of ... misclicks ... last Thursday or Friday, but I stopped myself before I got any further than what happened to Joffrey. I really should unsub from the GoT subreddit.

Anyway, in one of the earlier seasons, they made a big point of how poison was a woman's weapon. Seeing as how that was made as such a general statement, I'm guessing that any male suspects are innocent (Prince Oberyn and the fool)? I'm guessing it was either Sansa or the Tyrell's. They seemed to show Sansa a lot more on screen than the older Tyrell lady, and I don't think it would make sense for the Tyrell's to do it until the marriage was consummated. Also, with the mention of "like cutting off Ned Stark's head" and then the offensive "battle" re-enactment .... it would seem fitting. On the other hand, I don't think Sansa could have pulled it off, and if she did, certainly it wasn't alone.

The other thing I question is ... what if it wasn't the cup that was poisoned, but the whole bottle thing of wine? It was poured from a bottle sitting in front of Tywin and Cersei, maybe Joffrey wasn't the target? I didn't pay enough attention to remember if either of them drank from it. If Dorne doesn't view poison as a woman's weapon, it could have been the Oberyn guy trying to get Tywin or Cersei or both.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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And I felt that episode was somewhat weak. I mean, yeah, OK, good ending, but I was left feeling like not a whole lot else really happened. And if an episode can kill off my least favorite character in television history and leave me slightly bored, well, I don't know. Maybe a subsequent rewatch will reveal more subtle intricacies.

Actually, now that I think about it, no Daenaerys and no Arya/Hound in that one and a whole bunch of Boltons/Theon and Bran... I don't really give two shits about those storylines, so this episode wasn't going to rate highly with me regardless.

And, yeah, MongGrel, I don't know what your intention is, but spoiling the show for us just because you know the story ahead of time basically makes you Joffrey. No one wants to be Joffrey. Knock it off.
Heh, I felt the same way after, and maybe because the death felt somewhat unsatisfying--perhaps I wanted something more violent against Joffrey, or maybe even more recourse at that moment--more deaths at the wedding. Would have been a perfect time to reapply that theme from the Dothraki wedding ceremony, and have 3 deaths. So despite what may have happened in the books, it would have been more honest, I think, to kill off 3 people in this episode. :D
I mean, whoever plotted this (was it really just the random act of a houseless fool?) wasn't too bright about it. If you want the throne, simply killing Joffrey isn't going to accomplish much. The queen needs to go, as well as, possibly, Tywin (though I think killing off the show's best villain would be premature).

Season 3 did that with Dragon Lady as well--a few episodes, early on, with no appearance. I overcame that by only starting them when the entire season was on BD, but it definitely leaves a flat taste when you can't immediately overcome that slight by popping in the next episode. And yes--too much Bran and Theon, too little worthwhile stories (Hound and Daenarys)
 

KeithTalent

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Anyway, in one of the earlier seasons, they made a big point of how poison was a woman's weapon. Seeing as how that was made as such a general statement, I'm guessing that any male suspects are innocent (Prince Oberyn and the fool)?
Great point; I had forgotten about that.

KT
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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The other thing I question is ... what if it wasn't the cup that was poisoned, but the whole bottle thing of wine? It was poured from a bottle sitting in front of Tywin and Cersei, maybe Joffrey wasn't the target? I didn't pay enough attention to remember if either of them drank from it.

Based on the below observations I believe that Joffrey was indeed the target....

I rewatched the episode and you can see how it happens. Lady Olenna plays with Sansa's hair a bit over halfway through the episode and ends up pulling a gem on of Sansa's neck. They show a clear shot of the necklace missing a gem.

Then right before Joffrey goes to cut the pie, he hands his cup to Margaery and she puts her hand over the top of the cup for a split second covering it as she takes it from him and puts it on the table. Then when Joffrey comes back, he makes Tyrion hand him the cup of wine.
olenna, as she plucks the jewel from sansa's neck: "war is war, but killing a man at a wedding....horrid. what sort of monster would do such a thing?"
Also Lady Oleana did ask Sansa what kind of person Joffrey was and Sansa started saying what was expected of her but then she broke down and called him a monster.

Additionally consider the fact that the Tyrells are rich enough to pay Dontos (the fool), a character with a reason to hate Joffrey, to give a certain necklace to Sansa



.....
 
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KeithTalent

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That's all very interesting and maybe even true, but I just do not understand why they would do it right then. It makes no sense!

KT
 

crownjules

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2005
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Even if the wedding had been consummated Margery would have to be pregnant to remain Queen Regent. And obviously they wouldn't know if it's a boy or girl until birth so who knows how that would work. But the Iron Throne has not been sat by a Queen alone*. It always passes to a King. So Cersei's second son, Tommen, is heir apparent. Then Stannis.

If the Tyrell's are responsible, is it out of sheer altruism?

*
Except in one case where a Targaryen named his daughter as heir which resulted in the Targaryen civil war, the Dance of Dragons.
 
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blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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In fact, I feel that not reading fantasy makes one more literate.
Kind of a weird conclusion considering the subject of the thread. However, it is an unusual series in that it's "low fantasy" in which magic is very rare and that political maneuverings are just as important if not more so than battlefield heroics.


....
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
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I just rewatched the episode and it's the pie that was poisoned, not the wine. Oberyn wouldn't mind a bit of collateral damage for a chance to poison all the Lannisters. However, with such a fast-acting poison, chances are that only the first person or maybe a couple will die and the king would definitely be the first to eat.
You sure? Sure looked like a little flask of something was dropped in the wine right before based on the nod given to Loras right before Jaime talks to him.



That is my thought too.
pretty sure it was the pie. The 2 second shot of the pie while it was being moved would be superfluous, otherwise. Those dead birds weren't hacked by the sword.

Is Oberyn the fool? That is my thought as well--scene in previous episode where he gives the necklace to Sansa (like, who cares about this 3 minute guy from 18 episodes ago?) plus him running directly to her as Joffrey was wriggling, telling her to flee. I mean...come on.

oh--Oberynn is the new fancy prince for this season. I mean the fool with the long-dead house. whatever his name is.
 
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Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
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I'm sure Jaime knows the children are his. He guarded Robert's bedroom door and knew who he was having sex with, and it was seldom Cersei.

When Daario pledged his loyalty to Dany, he also pledged the Second Sons.
Didn't he decapitate his partners and offer their heads to Dany?
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
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That's all very interesting and maybe even true, but I just do not understand why they would do it right then. It makes no sense! KT
Maybe Lady Oleana couldn't stomach the thought of her granddaughter consummating the wedding with that monster?

Perhaps she was truly upset about the breaking of "Guests Right" which is a very big thing (with lasting consequences for the "high born") that the audience of the show might not have picked up upon but is spelled out very clearly in the books.

Bran's ghost story that he told at the start of the last episode of GoT s03 is the series cliff notes on the tradition.

She is also smart enough to figure out that Tywin Lannister had something to do with the Red Wedding even if she has no direct proof.


....
 

KeithTalent

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With all those people there, more possible suspects!
Yeah more suspects is fine, but it does nothing to give them power/the crown. Marjory (who is super weird looking by the way) would have had to be pregnant for it to be worthwhile.

KT
 

crownjules

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2005
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pretty sure it was the pie. The 2 second shot of the pie while it was being moved would be superfluous, otherwise. Those dead birds weren't hacked by the sword.
The birds were dead from Joffrey's hack at the pie. Just another demonstration of his cruelty. Those types of pies with live birds kept in to burst out when cut open are traditional.

Is Oberyn the fool? That is my thought as well--scene in previous episode where he gives the necklace to Sansa (like, who cares about this 3 minute guy from 18 episodes ago?) plus him running directly to her as Joffrey was wriggling, telling her to flee. I mean...come on.

oh--Oberynn is the new fancy prince for this season. I mean the fool with the long-dead house. whatever his name is.
Lol, you're mixing these two up bad.

Oberyn Martell is the 2nd prince of Dorne known as the Red Viper. Dontos Hollard is Joffrey's fool.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
105,022
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Ok, let's try this again. I think I have put the the right people on ignore now, so hopefully will be safe, but please guys, do not quote any dumbass who posts spoilers!

Anyway, glad to hear I am not the only one who found the episode and even the ending disappointing. I was worried I was just out of it from being on the tattoo table for 6 hours, but it seems the episode was pretty underwhelming on the whole.

KT
I know why you're disappointed: 6 more hours on the table next week to remove your "King Joffrey 4Lyfe!" full back tattoo?
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,525
42
86
One thing I didn't understand about the episode was while the dwarfs were doing a mockery of the war, Tyrion says to his helper "Pay each of them 20 gold when this is done, we'll have to find another way to thank the King."

I assume he meant to the dwarfs 20 would get gold each, but I can't figure out why he would feel obligated to.
 

KeithTalent

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Nov 30, 2005
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Maybe Lady Oleana couldn't stomach the thought of her granddaughter consummating the wedding with that monster?

Perhaps she was truly upset about the breaking of "Guests Right" which is a very big thing (with lasting consequences for the "high born") that the audience of the show might not have picked up upon but is spelled out very clearly in the books.

Bran's ghost story that he told at the start of the last episode of GoT s03 is the series cliff notes on the tradition.

She is also smart enough to figure out that Tywin Lannister had something to do with the Red Wedding even if she has no direct proof.
....
So she is making up for the breaking of guest's rights at the Red Wedding? Possible I guess, but again seems very unlikely to me. Maybe she got worried about the consummation with Joffrey and also worried about the Ciersei/Rose Knight wedding and effectively ended both by doing this. It's possible, but she seems far too smart and calculating not to have a better end game than this.

Of course maybe we just have not seen her actual plan just yet.

KT
 

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