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Game of Thrones - TV Series (NO BOOK SPOILERS)

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crownjules

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2005
4,860
0
71
Re: GRRM killing characters that "matter" - that's the thing. No single character actually matters in the grand scope of it all. The books are called A Song of Ice and Fire which is a subtle clue as to where the real story lies. It's not about Ned or Robb Stark, or Jamie Lannister, or Danerys Targaeryen, or Stannis Baratheon in the sense that any of of them are the story's protagonist (or antagonist). They are all just pawns - some interesting, some likable, some detestable - that are moving around in a bigger game.

In the books, you jump from character to character so much I've never really gotten attached to any single one. Some you like and some you hate more than others, but it's more about the interlocking plots they're part of and how they're progressing then the individual people.
 

waterjug

Senior member
Jan 21, 2012
930
0
76
Eh, I like that something happened, and they got to the RW, but as someone said it's basically just Russian Roulette at this point. Going to watch the last episode of this season this coming week and then probably drop it from my rotation
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,633
5
81
Sorry but after sleeping on it, the "killing a pregnant woman by stabbing the uterus" scene was just uncalled for. Especially if this is not how it goes down in the book. HBO stepped over a line IMO.
Yeah, that really pissed off my wife, who was practically catatonic for an hour following the episode. She's not overly bothered by the violence in GoT; she looks away for the more gruesome stuff but it's more out of disgust than anything. But she (and I) draw the line at violence against children and pregnant women, which never gets crossed in most fiction.

And actually, to clarify my earlier point - it's not so much that I'm upset that they killed Robb. As someone mentioned, he wasn't a very well developed character, and he was pretty stupid to think he could win his war. It's more that I'm concerned about what happens now with the people at King's Landing. Without the Starks gunning for them, do they just sit back and relax? It'll take a long time for Daenerys to reach them, and the only other angle is Melisandre and Stannis.

But I'm sure there will be some kind of shift in focus. I mean, it wouldn't be very interesting if the story was just "Joffrey sits on the throne, everyone else going for it dies, the end." There has to be some conflict.
 

Newbian

Lifer
Aug 24, 2008
24,604
624
126
But I'm sure there will be some kind of shift in focus. I mean, it wouldn't be very interesting if the story was just "Joffrey sits on the throne, everyone else going for it dies, the end." There has to be some conflict.
Don't worry as there will be plenty of it very soon.
 

olds

Elite Member
Mar 3, 2000
49,563
397
126
...

I dont think they delivered that well. And I was disappointed to see my wife (hasnt read the books) miss the Rains of Castamere cue. Went right over her head. So despite their best efforts to set that up, apparently it didnt work on everyone.
...
Same for the wife and I. I saw the look on the Stark woman's face and knew something was up. If I had recognized the song it would have been SO much better.
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,567
3
0
Same for the wife and I. I saw the look on the Stark woman's face and knew something was up. If I had recognized the song it would have been SO much better.
It reminded me of the Godfather 3 when they are in the hotel and the helicopter appears in the window and Andy Garcia yells, "its a hit!"
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,826
82
91
Yeah, that really pissed off my wife, who was practically catatonic for an hour following the episode. She's not overly bothered by the violence in GoT; she looks away for the more gruesome stuff but it's more out of disgust than anything. But she (and I) draw the line at violence against children and pregnant women, which never gets crossed in most fiction.

And actually, to clarify my earlier point - it's not so much that I'm upset that they killed Robb. As someone mentioned, he wasn't a very well developed character, and he was pretty stupid to think he could win his war. It's more that I'm concerned about what happens now with the people at King's Landing. Without the Starks gunning for them, do they just sit back and relax? It'll take a long time for Daenerys to reach them, and the only other angle is Melisandre and Stannis.

But I'm sure there will be some kind of shift in focus. I mean, it wouldn't be very interesting if the story was just "Joffrey sits on the throne, everyone else going for it dies, the end." There has to be some conflict.
Stannis and Littlefinger are both likely to have more of a presence in the next season with the loss of the Starks.

there's also still Daenerys doing her thing and all the junk going on along the Wall.
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
2,894
0
0
And actually, to clarify my earlier point - it's not so much that I'm upset that they killed Robb. As someone mentioned, he wasn't a very well developed character, and he was pretty stupid to think he could win his war. It's more that I'm concerned about what happens now with the people at King's Landing. Without the Starks gunning for them, do they just sit back and relax? It'll take a long time for Daenerys to reach them, and the only other angle is Melisandre and Stannis.
I think this is one of Martin's biggest points to his story. If you're a little person (and I mean poor, not Tyrion), this war sucks for you no matter who you are or what side you're on. The Northmen weren't particularly wonderful to the towns they sacked. They raped and killed just the same. Robb wasn't being a particularly good Shepard of his own people, either. The people living in the North have seen their country torn apart, and for what? Because the king on the throne isn't really the son of the previous king?

While Robb and Ned may have been adhering to some abstract code of honor when they stuck to their guns and tried to go against the grain, the average person arguably would have been much better off had they just bent the knee and avoided war. Being right and 15 cents gets your country torn into a bloody mess.

You can say all you want about how much of a liar Littlefinger is, but the truth is that he's does his power grabs with a lot less killing of normal folk. In that sense, you could argue he's the most honorable character in the story.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,214
215
106
I think the above and the various rebuttals others have provided say a lot about the different reasons people read/watch fiction, and what they get out of it. On this topic at least, there seem to be two distinct camps.

The first camp wants something to root for. They want to latch on to a person/people they like and watch their steady rise to victory. Fiction for them is, among other things, an outlet to reaffirm their belief that being morally right means you can win against terrible odds (or at least a chance to live in a world where that is true). Martin is going to agitate these people, because he seems to take particular delight in upsetting this notion. Fortunately for these people, though, most fiction is written for them.

The second group (including myself) gets frustrated with most fiction, because its predictability makes the suspension of disbelief difficult. I tend to get bored at supposedly suspenseful moments in most books because I know that the protagonist will survive. We're less interested in finding someone to believe in than we are in finding a story to believe in. Settings like A Song of Ice and Fire are great for us, because the real story is the world, and interesting characters come in and out of it, just as they do in real life.

In fact, if you really think about it, up to this point in the show, none of the really interesting characters (Tyrion, Daenerys' dragons, Varys, Littlefinger, Arya, Sandor, Jaime, Davos, Samwell, etc.) have died. Robb and Ned were kind of boring, and Catelyn was getting whiny with her obsessive grief. It's just that there's a sense now that the truly interesting characters could (and very well may yet) be killed.
Your example is too black and white, similar to the cliche you mention. It doesn't matter to me who "wins" the game of thrones, I root for characters because I like them. I think Tywin is a badass doesn't matter if he's "good" or "evil". What makes for bad story telling is investing you into a character and then killing them off, resulting in a complete waste of time. The way GoT is written, there isn't going to be an end. Sure it will have a literal ending when Martin finishes writing, but it could've ended after the first book or the current one. There's no conclusion to his story, it's like reading a snippet of history, except it's not real history so there's no point.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
1,410
2
81
Sorry but after sleeping on it, the "killing a pregnant woman by stabbing the uterus" scene was just uncalled for. Especially if this is not how it goes down in the book. HBO stepped over a line IMO.
Disagree. More gruesome things happen in the book than what the show has had the stones to reproduce so far.
 

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
29,392
423
126
Same for the wife and I. I saw the look on the Stark woman's face and knew something was up. If I had recognized the song it would have been SO much better.
It helped that I almost always watch non-comedies with closed captioning turned on. It's way too easy to miss some weird-sounding word, but with comedies, you want to avoid screwing up comedic timing. Anyway, I mention it because the closed captions put the name of the song when it started playing.
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
1,476
0
71
Re: GRRM killing characters that "matter" - that's the thing. No single character actually matters in the grand scope of it all. The books are called A Song of Ice and Fire which is a subtle clue as to where the real story lies. It's not about Ned or Robb Stark, or Jamie Lannister, or Danerys Targaeryen, or Stannis Baratheon in the sense that any of of them are the story's protagonist (or antagonist). They are all just pawns - some interesting, some likable, some detestable - that are moving around in a bigger game.

In the books, you jump from character to character so much I've never really gotten attached to any single one. Some you like and some you hate more than others, but it's more about the interlocking plots they're part of and how they're progressing then the individual people.
Yeah, I don't understand why people would lose interest in the story after the killing of rob and cat; if anything it makes the story 10x more interesting. I haven't read the books, so forgive me if I'm way off the mark, but their deaths open up so many possibilities. And I'm just dying to see what happens next-how will the people in kings landing react to the news?

What will the stark army do now? Join with stannis? Bend the knee to jeoffrey?

Who will be the new warden of the north? How will this affect the upcoming war with the white walkers?

How anyone thinks the story is pointless now is beyond me.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,439
1
81
Yeah, I don't understand why people would lose interest in the story after the killing of rob and cat; if anything it makes the story 10x more interesting. I haven't read the books, so forgive me if I'm way off the mark, but their deaths open up so many possibilities. And I'm just dying to see what happens next-how will the people in kings landing react to the news?

What will the stark army do now? Join with stannis? Bend the knee to jeoffrey?

Who will be the new warden of the north? How will this affect the upcoming war with the white walkers?

How anyone thinks the story is pointless now is beyond me.
Sansa inherits the North, which would make her new husband Tyrion lord of the North. So, you know, it's Lannister territory now... Which I think would be OK with plenty of northerners given that the Freys and Karstarks turned on the Starks, Winterfell was burned and the North is fractured. Barring that, you've got a young Stark who can control a giant with his mind; that's got to count for something, right?

Honestly, at this point, the North is totally boned. They're falling under the command of the son of their enemy, they've rebelled in the south and they're being attacked by wildlings and zombies from the north... They're basically fucked, right? Good time to declare fealty to the Lannisters and hope they don't slaughter you for sport.
 

bononos

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2011
3,687
59
91
Re: GRRM killing characters that "matter" - that's the thing. No single character actually matters in the grand scope of it all. The books are called A Song of Ice and Fire which is a subtle clue as to where the real story lies. It's not about Ned or Robb Stark, or Jamie Lannister, or Danerys Targaeryen, or Stannis Baratheon in the sense that any of of them are the story's protagonist (or antagonist). They are all just pawns - some interesting, some likable, some detestable - that are moving around in a bigger game.
.......
Yes. GRRM is writing a grand sweeping epic in the style of Mahabarata, well maybe not as sweeping but its is far longer than the usual sword and sorcery novels where a character like Robb would've probably triumphed as redemption for his father's execution.
 

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