G-d damned Russians escorted off American airspace...again

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: SoundTheSurrender
Shoot them down? Then what? Wage war against Russia? Do you think that's smart?

Yes, nothing, no, no - in that order.

To elaborate on my nothing - The only thing that would happen is that these activities would cease, no war, no renewed Cold War, etc.

it's not like we would be putting a damper on a great working relationship, Putin has been in full cock block mode for years now and now wants to show us his judo moves.

 

[manowar821]

Holy nationalist crap, batman!

Little children fighting over imaginary lines.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Harvey

I repeat -- If what you're willing to give when you sign up for that paycheck includes blind allegiance to the exclusion of your conscience and your personal integrity, you'd only disgrace any uniform of the United States of America.

lol. That's victor's justice. Look at what we did to the American indians or what the Japanese did to the Chinese, yet I didn't see any soldiers or politicians going to prison over what they did.

Everything is relative. There are no absolutes.

And you think that makes those actions OK? Or didn't you notice that Japan is still suffering blowback for the way they hijacked women from their Asian neighbors, including China, Korea, as enslaved prostitutes, eufemistically called "comfort women":

Comfort women

Comfort women or military comfort women is a euphemism for women forced into prostitution and sexual slavery for Japanese military brothels during World War II. Around 10,000 - 200,000 are estimated to have been procured, but there is still some disagreement about exact numbers. Historians and researchers have stated that the majority were from Korea and China, but women from the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, the Dutch East Indies, Indonesia, and other Japanese-occupied territories were also used in "comfort stations". Stations were located in Japan, China, the Philippines, Indonesia, then Malaya, Thailand, then Burma, then New Guinea, Hong Kong, Macau, and what was then French Indochina.

Young women from countries under Japanese imperial domination were reportedly abducted from their homes against their will. In some cases, women were also recruited with offers of work in military canteens and factories and subsequently forced to sexual service. It has been documented that the Japanese military itself recruited women by force.

The size and nature of sexual slavery by the Japanese military during World War II is still being actively debated, especially in Japan.

Many military brothels were run by private agents and supervised by the Japanese Army. Some Japanese historians, using the testimony of ex-comfort women, have argued that the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy were either directly or indirectly involved in coercing, deceiving, luring, and sometimes kidnapping young women throughout Japan's Asian colonies and occupied territories.

In the U.S., we're still attempting to deal with the negative effects of the injustices done to native Americans as Euro-ethnic settlers spread westward from the Atlantic coast.

We can't change history, but with 20-20 hindsight, but that's no excuse for betraying our own enlightened better selves by pretending that short term victory in battle somehow absolves us of responsiblity for acknowledging and addressing the wrongs that were done.

Thanks for telling us you have no ethics or morals and that you believe absolutes of good and evil, right and wrong, are determined solely by brute force.

You're one sick puppy. :thumbsdown:

 

[Braznor]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Braznor
Heck, its not like America didn't piss the Russians by extending NATO right to her borders inspite of Putin's displeasure. This is Putin's way of upping the game plan. He wants you to shoot the bomber down so that the cold war can be resumed openly in Eastern Europe.

But don't let common sense stop you cowboys though.

Yes, jeebus christ what were those soverign nations thinking?

Maybe that they were soverign and it was, uhh, their choice and not Russia's frickin business?

Fern

Yep, But tell the Russians that. To them, their borders being encroached upon by NATO is as bad as their bombers approaching yours for you.

These are the games great powers play and will continue do so long they exist. Accept it and move on.

Mark my words, there is nothing Putin will like better than you shooting down one of his bombers. He can then use it to make himself look like a cold war hero to his people all over again.

 

[fstime]

I love all these people screaming "shoot it down! shoot it down!"

Welcome to the real world, this happens all over the world to several countries on a daily basis.

 

[freegeeks]

the British, Swedish and pilots from Norway intercept Russian bombers all the time. Big deal. This has been going on for 40 years

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: Braznor
Heck, its not like America didn't piss the Russians by extending NATO right to her borders inspite of Putin's displeasure. This is Putin's way of upping the game plan. He wants you to shoot the bomber down so that the cold war can be resumed openly in Eastern Europe.

But don't let common sense stop you cowboys though.

Yes, jeebus christ what were those soverign nations thinking?

Maybe that they were soverign and it was, uhh, their choice and not Russia's frickin business?

Fern

Probably they were thinking NATO that can't even handle Afghanistan will protect them against some Russian invasion they are still paranoid about.

 

[kage69]

OP needs to brush up on how these military matters work before calling for blood.

My immediate thought upon hearing this story as well. The exploratory "pokes" we've taken at our adversaries since the beginning of the Cold War read exactly like this article, some even more disturbingly provocative. Still, something in me doesn't care for these acts involving our carriers. In my feeling, once you're talking about the combined worth of a carrier group, there should be a total, non-US exclusion zone around the prime asset. We need to fry out their radar and communications or something, obviously short of opening fire, but there needs to be an unappetizing price to pay for buzzing the Nimitz, or the Kitty Hawk like they did a few years ago. You wanna come look? Fine, but now you have to ditch in the sea, and the crew gets to be "debriefed" for a week or so.


Must say I'm surprised at the attitude towards the Bear though, I'm getting the impression that design age plays a huge role in the perception of aircraft here. Um, would anyone like to play a game and guess how old the B-52 is? I know they don't receive the same level of financial upkeep and mods, but the point stands. It may look funny and antiquated, but let me say that the presence of propeller blades doesn't mean it's worthless. It's actually pretty damn efficient, and like the buff is a pretty good return for the money invested.

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: daveymark

Originally posted by: loki8481
this sounds like an occasion to sit down, hold hands, and have a sharing circle with Putin.

you forgot "create an open dialog"

You're right. Diplomacy is for losers (who might be gay). Lets kill everyone who looks at us cross-eyed.

I'm sure they just need a good hug. maybe Obama should have them sit down with Vice President Winfrey.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: kage69

OP needs to brush up on how these military matters work before calling for blood.

My immediate thought upon hearing this story as well. The exploratory "pokes" we've taken at our adversaries since the beginning of the Cold War read exactly like this article, some even more disturbingly provocative. Still, something in me doesn't care for these acts involving our carriers. In my feeling, once you're talking about the combined worth of a carrier group, there should be a total, non-US exclusion zone around the prime asset. We need to fry out their radar and communications or something, obviously short of opening fire, but there needs to be an unappetizing price to pay for buzzing the Nimitz, or the Kitty Hawk like they did a few years ago. You wanna come look? Fine, but now you have to ditch in the sea, and the crew gets to be "debriefed" for a week or so.


Must say I'm surprised at the attitude towards the Bear though, I'm getting the impression that design age plays a huge role in the perception of aircraft here. Um, would anyone like to play a game and guess how old the B-52 is? I know they don't receive the same level of financial upkeep and mods, but the point stands. It may look funny and antiquated, but let me say that the presence of propeller blades doesn't mean it's worthless. It's actually pretty damn efficient, and like the buff is a pretty good return for the money invested.

Bufs are over 50 and my Eagles (A/B Model) are over 30. Strike (E Model) is over 25.

All have been doing their jobs on the frontlines when needed without a whimper.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Dari
Just because that c**ksucker Putin is flushed with petrodollars, he thinks he can keep doing this shit without retribution? It's almost as if they have a death wish. Next time, we should just send a missile their away and call it a "mistake".

Settle down Francis...

When I was a kid growing up in Alaska this kind of thing happened every week. I'm not sure why they're trying to tweak us like that again... after what, 20 years of not doing it. But this holds very little in the way of any kind of threat to Alaska or the US.

I guess Putin is just showing us his soul.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Dari
Just because that c**ksucker Putin is flushed with petrodollars, he thinks he can keep doing this shit without retribution? It's almost as if they have a death wish. Next time, we should just send a missile their away and call it a "mistake".

You do not go starting a shooting match without a reasonable justification - It can backfire easily.

The Russians wanted to test out response - they got the info they were seeking and played the rules of the game accordingly.

The same happened with the carrier.


Entering an ADIZ zone is much different than an no-fly exclusion zone.
The ADIZ is for such issues - Air Defense Identification - check out the intruder, determine the intentions and go from there.

A no-fly ups the anti - those that enter, know that the game is different and the pucker factor is much more. The rules change in favor of the defender.

An overfly (of land or sea) can remove the pucker factor completely - no-one wants to try that.

 

[kage69]

Bufs are over 50 and my Eagles (A/B Model) are over 30. Strike (E Model) is over 25.

All have been doing their jobs on the frontlines when needed without a whimper.

Winner! Thank you EK. I think we can safely say that age alone doesn't qualify a design as junk, contrary to what has been previously implied in this thread. If memory serves, I think the buff is actually a few years older than the Bear.
I guess my appeal is to judge on performance merits versus costs, not on looks and age.

A no-fly ups the anti - those that enter, know that the game is different and the pucker factor is much more.

Yep, all the more so when you factor in autonomous defense systems like the Phalanx. Even though we're technically allies with Russia, a finski says that one pilot had to be breaking at least a little sweat knowing that any second he and his craft/crew could be absolutely shredded into fish food and flotsam.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: kage69

Bufs are over 50 and my Eagles (A/B Model) are over 30. Strike (E Model) is over 25.

All have been doing their jobs on the frontlines when needed without a whimper.

Winner! Thank you EK. I think we can safely say that age alone doesn't qualify a design as junk, contrary to what has been previously implied in this thread. If memory serves, I think the buff is actually a few years older than the Bear.
I guess my appeal is to judge on performance merits versus costs, not on looks and age.

A no-fly ups the anti - those that enter know that they game is diffeent and the pucker factor is much more.

Yep, all the more so when you factor in autonomous defense systems like the Phalanx. Even though we're technically allies with Russia, a finski says that one pilot had to be breaking at least a little sweat knowing that any second he and his craft/crew could be absolutely shredded into fish food and flotsam.

Actually the Phalanx probably wouldn't do that, an aircraft is unlikely to fit its target profile.

 

[fleshconsumed]

So tell me op, how do you feel about U2 incident in 1960?

 

[kage69]

Actually the Phalanx probably wouldn't do that, an aircraft is unlikely to fit its target profile.

My fault for not elaborating. I still had the image of a Bear making a 2000ft buzz of a carrier in my head. Guess I was fixating on that one recent incident, but yes, there other tasty treats for things that cruise up high and far off.

But that is what happens to aircraft hulls and munitions when exposed to unhealthy amounts of 20mm fire...

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Harvey

I repeat -- If what you're willing to give when you sign up for that paycheck includes blind allegiance to the exclusion of your conscience and your personal integrity, you'd only disgrace any uniform of the United States of America.

lol. That's victor's justice. Look at what we did to the American indians or what the Japanese did to the Chinese, yet I didn't see any soldiers or politicians going to prison over what they did.

Everything is relative. There are no absolutes.

And you think that makes those actions OK? Or didn't you notice that Japan is still suffering blowback for the way they hijacked women from their Asian neighbors, including China, Korea, as enslaved prostitutes, eufemistically called "comfort women":

Comfort women

Comfort women or military comfort women is a euphemism for women forced into prostitution and sexual slavery for Japanese military brothels during World War II. Around 10,000 - 200,000 are estimated to have been procured, but there is still some disagreement about exact numbers. Historians and researchers have stated that the majority were from Korea and China, but women from the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, the Dutch East Indies, Indonesia, and other Japanese-occupied territories were also used in "comfort stations". Stations were located in Japan, China, the Philippines, Indonesia, then Malaya, Thailand, then Burma, then New Guinea, Hong Kong, Macau, and what was then French Indochina.

Young women from countries under Japanese imperial domination were reportedly abducted from their homes against their will. In some cases, women were also recruited with offers of work in military canteens and factories and subsequently forced to sexual service. It has been documented that the Japanese military itself recruited women by force.

The size and nature of sexual slavery by the Japanese military during World War II is still being actively debated, especially in Japan.

Many military brothels were run by private agents and supervised by the Japanese Army. Some Japanese historians, using the testimony of ex-comfort women, have argued that the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy were either directly or indirectly involved in coercing, deceiving, luring, and sometimes kidnapping young women throughout Japan's Asian colonies and occupied territories.

In the U.S., we're still attempting to deal with the negative effects of the injustices done to native Americans as Euro-ethnic settlers spread westward from the Atlantic coast.

We can't change history, but with 20-20 hindsight, but that's no excuse for betraying our own enlightened better selves by pretending that short term victory in battle somehow absolves us of responsiblity for acknowledging and addressing the wrongs that were done.

Thanks for telling us you have no ethics or morals and that you believe absolutes of good and evil, right and wrong, are determined solely by brute force.

You're one sick puppy. :thumbsdown:

Spare me my sins, your moralist:roll:. I'm guessing you say a prayer for the 26 MILLION chinese that the japanese killed? No? I didn't think so.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: kage69

Yep, all the more so when you factor in autonomous defense systems like the Phalanx. Even though we're technically allies with Russia, a finski says that one pilot had to be breaking at least a little sweat knowing that any second he and his craft/crew could be absolutely shredded into fish food and flotsam.

Actually the Phalanx probably wouldn't do that, an aircraft is unlikely to fit its target profile.

2000ft is plenty close enough for the CIWS to kick in and shred the bomber, although I'm sure the system wasn't at that particular threat level of operation to target an aircraft.

Now, if a Bear had electronically targeted the warship, Phalanx may heightened its "awareness" and dispatched of the aircraft unless manually overridden.

Well, that's kind of how things have been explained to me by my Navy peeps.

EDIT: I know this most recent episode was different, but it's just a response to kage69s thoughts on aircraft getting very close.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
So tell me op, how do you feel about U2 incident in 1960?

The russians did their job. Today, we need to show them who's boss.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Dari
Spare me my sins, your moralist:roll:. I'm guessing you say a prayer for the 26 MILLION chinese that the japanese killed? No? I didn't think so.

Spare us your lame bullshit attempts to excuse your own moral bankruptcy as a human being and your willingness to kill other human beings for no reason other than stroking your ego and satisfying your blood lust. :thumbsdown: :frown:

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
So tell me op, how do you feel about U2 incident in 1960?

The russians did their job. Today, we need to show them who's boss.

I'm really really glad you are completely impotent. Start a shooting war over this? Insane.

We and they know the rules here. Fortunately all you can do is bang your shoe on the table.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Dari
Spare me my sins, your moralist:roll:. I'm guessing you say a prayer for the 26 MILLION chinese that the japanese killed? No? I didn't think so.

Spare us your lame bullshit attempts to excuse your own moral bankruptcy as a human being and your willingness to kill other human beings for no reason other than stroking your ego and satisfying your blood lust. :thumbsdown: :frown:

What makes you think you are more moral than me? You're the ones that walk around telling people how to live their lives or condemning them to hell if they don't follow your way of life. But, in secrecy, you are 10,000 dirtier than me.

Please, don't go around judging others.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
So tell me op, how do you feel about U2 incident in 1960?

The russians did their job. Today, we need to show them who's boss.

I think you watched too many movies like Red Dawn and Rambo. Grow up.

There are certain unwritten rules that both sides follow, and they were followed in this case as well. You don't screw around trying to act tough and trigger-happy in these sorts of things.

Shooting planes down tends to kill people, and piss off the country whose plane was shot down. There is no need to accidentally start any sort of skirmishes that might be grounds for retaliation.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
So tell me op, how do you feel about U2 incident in 1960?

The russians did their job. Today, we need to show them who's boss.

I think you watched too many movies like Red Dawn and Rambo. Grow up.

There are certain unwritten rules that both sides follow, and they were followed in this case as well. You don't screw around trying to act tough and trigger-happy in these sorts of things.

Shooting planes down tends to kill people, and piss off the country whose plane was shot down. There is no need to accidentally start any sort of skirmishes that might be grounds for retaliation.

And stop being such a puss. The Russians have shot down far more civilian and American crafts than we have. They won't start a war over a "mistake".

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
So tell me op, how do you feel about U2 incident in 1960?

The russians did their job. Today, we need to show them who's boss.

I think you watched too many movies like Red Dawn and Rambo. Grow up.

There are certain unwritten rules that both sides follow, and they were followed in this case as well. You don't screw around trying to act tough and trigger-happy in these sorts of things.

Shooting planes down tends to kill people, and piss off the country whose plane was shot down. There is no need to accidentally start any sort of skirmishes that might be grounds for retaliation.

And stop being such a puss. The Russians have shot down far more civilian and American crafts than we have. They won't start a war over a "mistake".

Hey, let's take Saddam out too! A few weeks of combat and they'll be throwing roses.