Future of nVidia SLI?

[beakynb]

Like many others, I have 2 x nvidia GPU's so don't fancy forking out to replace them if I move to an AMD chipset. Now I know there's a hack for this but I'm not convinced it always works.

My thought is, if nvidia have stopped designing and producing chipsets, what's the future for their SLI? From what I can see, so far, all that stops SLI working on non-nvidia chipsets is nvidia's GPU driver, which looks for specific hardware in the HAL to force us to use a nvidia chipset.

So, surely if nvidia want SLI to continue, as I'm sure they do, they must at some point some remove this dependancy from their GPU driver.

nvidia SLI is dead otherwise.

Does anyone have a view on this or any insight into whether nvidia plan to remove this dependancy from their driver?

Thanks,
Beaky

 

[wahdangun]

just use the cracked driver, actually nvdia SLI is no different than CFX that AMD have, and what nvdia do is just implement DRM to block this SLI function if the motehrboard didn't pay the license fee, and this cracked driver remove the DRM

 

[beakynb]

Yeah, I agree this is an option on AMD chipsets provided it works but you're not going to know until you get an AMD board and try it.

It not really an issue on intel boards but for nVidia, you'd think they'd remove the DRM so that SLI is an option on AMD.

 

[Hauk]

Intel..

 

[Arkadrel]

beakynb Intel isnt dropping SLI just yet... if that happends, nvidia would probably just remove the licence fee and DRM in drivers.

so no issues at all, and you can always just used hacked drivers <.<' for sli support on amd chipsets (or just buy amd grafrics cards so you can have crossfire).

 

[taltamir]

SLI does not actually require any special "support" in the motherboard.

The only thing it requires is two PCIe 16x slots (don't have to actually operate at 16x, that is actually the name of the longest PCIe slot).
The only reason it will not work on select AMD/intel mobos is because the motherboard maker (Asus, MSI, etc) did not agree to give nvidia their 5$ per board cut for the privilage of storing a set of encrypted licensing keys on the mobo's bios. In fact I have seen a few boards before that were identical except that one of them is xfire only, one is xfire+SLI and cost 5$ extra.

This is all 100&#37; marketing smoke and mirrors backed with DRM with absolutely no technical reason preventing it. In regards to using the cracked drivers: I am not sure about its legality in the USA; technically that DRM is against the law but it needs a class action lawsuit against nvidia to declare it as such; breaking any DRM of any sort is against the law due to DMCA, unless an exception exists (eg: the DMCA law allows the library of congress to declare things specifically exempt from DMCA anti cracking law, which has been used to render things such as format shifting and jail-breaking apple devices legal; on the rationale that the DRM that the companies use in them is illegal in the first place). Of course, you might not even live in the USA in which case the legality of the thing changes.

Anyways, if nvidia sees sales dip all they have to do is release DRM free drivers and suddenly every mobo ever made with 2 slots can support nvidia SLI. I bet you than WHEN (not if) that happens they will have quite a marketing spin on it, as if it is some technological breakthrough... Probably they will limit it to newer top of the line cards at first too.

 

[beakynb]

Thanks Arkadrel.

I realise the intel route is a good one but for now that means more expense than I'd prefer in order to move away from AMD, which BTW, I'm more than happy with for performance.

This issue really is, if for example if my motherboard fails, I'm either stuck with a ageing nvidia chipset lineup, move to AMD chipset and risk the SLI not working, or fork out for a complete re-engineer (either AMD with Crossfire or intel with SLI or Crossfire).

It's a real shame nvidia take this position with SLI on an AMD and my hope is that they remove the DRM.

Again, surely it makes sense for nvidia or they simply lose a revenue stream if people can't go SLI on AMD, especially as it would mean AMD sell more GPU's.

Maybe nvidia will get back on the chipset road but I doubt it.

Beaky

 

[nitromullet]

Right now NV probably doesn't care about the AMD platform. Once AMD actually comes out with a cpu that most gamers actually want to buy this may change.

 

[beakynb]

Hi taltamir.

I totally understand the principals that SLI only needs 2xPCIe x16 (or x8 capable) and that there's actually nothing technical stopping it from working.

As you say, WHEN nvidia see a slump in sales due to the superior AMD chipsets, then again I agree that nvidia will probably (and hopefully) remove the DRM.

What I'm actually surprised about is they haven't worked this out yet.

Cheers,
Beaky

 

[beakynb]

Hi nitromullet.

A good point but there are probably a lot out there committed to AMD and although it would be great to have the fastest of everything, again a lot of people don't (or do they need to, even for gaming).

Maybe Bulldozer will change the situation and view of gamers.

Cheers,
Beaky

 

[taltamir]

This issue really is, if for example if my motherboard fails, I'm either stuck with a ageing nvidia chipset lineup, move to AMD chipset and risk the SLI not working, or fork out for a complete re-engineer (either AMD with Crossfire or intel with SLI or Crossfire).

1. You could always sell the parts you own to finance a reengineer.
2. If your mobo fails you could easily find an identical replacement online somewhere.

What I'm actually surprised about is they haven't worked this out yet.

Pride & stubbornness of their CEO... that or my prediction that allowing anyone to run SLI would be more profitable is incorrect and they really do make more money with their current policy.

 

[bryanW1995]

beakynb Intel isnt dropping SLI just yet... if that happends, nvidia would probably just remove the licence fee and DRM in drivers.

so no issues at all, and you can always just used hacked drivers <.<' for sli support on amd chipsets (or just buy amd grafrics cards so you can have crossfire).

isn't there something about nvidia graphics support for intel in their $1.5 billion settlement? nvidia and intel aren't parting ways anytime soon regardless, intel has to cooperate with somebody re graphics and they compete a LOT more vs AMD right now than vs NV. now, if intel were to buy NV then it would be a different story.

Here's a scary thought: where would we be right now if intel had bought ati instead of letting amd get them? nvidia + multi-gpu would be close to death, though I guess it's possible that they would have bought amd instead...interesting what-if scenario though.

 

[bryanW1995]

Thanks Arkadrel.

I realise the intel route is a good one but for now that means more expense than I'd prefer in order to move away from AMD, which BTW, I'm more than happy with for performance.

This issue really is, if for example if my motherboard fails, I'm either stuck with a ageing nvidia chipset lineup, move to AMD chipset and risk the SLI not working, or fork out for a complete re-engineer (either AMD with Crossfire or intel with SLI or Crossfire).

It's a real shame nvidia take this position with SLI on an AMD and my hope is that they remove the DRM.

Again, surely it makes sense for nvidia or they simply lose a revenue stream if people can't go SLI on AMD, especially as it would mean AMD sell more GPU's.

Maybe nvidia will get back on the chipset road but I doubt it.

Beaky

you have the same odds of the driver crack not working as you do of your actual drivers themselves not working. all it does is remove the drm-block.

@taltamir: if they're really getting $5 per sli-enabled mobo then that's likely more $$ for nvidia, anyway. lots of people talk about using multiple cards, but how many people with xfire/sli capable mobos actually use it? $5 upfront from chipset profit vs the small potential of an amd fan getting a cheaper/slower system but then wanting nvidia gpus and then wanting to sli them is probably a good move.

 

[taltamir]

@taltamir: if they're really getting $5 per sli-enabled mobo then that's likely more $$ for nvidia, anyway. lots of people talk about using multiple cards, but how many people with xfire/sli capable mobos actually use it? $5 upfront from chipset profit vs the small potential of an amd fan getting a cheaper/slower system but then wanting nvidia gpus and then wanting to sli them is probably a good move.

You raise a good point, I was thinking it is more profit for them but you might be right.
As you say if someone is buying an AMD system over an intel there are two likely scenarios:
1. They are on a tight budget - no SLI.
2. They are an AMD fan - no nVidia.

Although countering that is:
1. They make more than 5$ per card; and with SLI its 2 cards.
2. They would have a chance to "steal" an AMD fan or ex AMD fans who still have AMD mobos.
3. A person might just not think the 5-10&#37; extra CPU speed from an intel is worth all that money, but want and be able to afford an overpowered GPU setup.
4. The person just might hate intel, rather then being an AMD fan.

While I stand by my thoughts on their physX limitation, it is possible that they really are making more money with their SLI limitation. Also, before dropping the plan completely they can try lowing the licensing price or giving certain manufacturers discounts.

 

[notty22]

Nvidia controls the environment around SLI and PhysX to also assure the quality of the product. or at least they try. SLI is only licensed to 8x-8x or better. We know what they do with phsyX, their driver only works with Nvidia gpu's. With SLI, you get the bridge,(s) with your m/b. AMD charges for crossfire support as well. Take a look at your m/b, the crossfire(tm) is engraved near the pci-e ports.
Thats not free.

Does it work ?
Well we hear plenty of complaints from AMD fans about Nvidia rules, but imho a common theme in forums is Nvidia drivers and SLI is better than AMD's, maybe their approach works ?

What we don't hear is Nvidia's drivers screwed up my AMD system,when I tried to run PhysX games. That is what could happen, if they allowed their driver to officially run on AMD main gpu systems. The VGA driver controls the windows GUI and can cause the most system troubles or at least throw errors from other system instabilities.
Nvidia and AMD tech support would be pointing fingers at each other as to a users problems.
Which is also why SLI is not supported with AMD chipsets. All data traffic is routed through there/driver.
ALL imho.

 

[TransistorsX]

Nvidia controls the environment around SLI and PhysX to also assure the quality of the product. or at least they try. SLI is only licensed to 8x-8x or better. We know what they do with phsyX, their driver only works with Nvidia gpu's. With SLI, you get the bridge,(s) with your m/b. AMD charges for crossfire support as well. Take a look at your m/b, the crossfire(tm) is engraved near the pci-e ports.
Thats not free.

Does it work ?
Well we hear plenty of complaints from AMD fans about Nvidia rules, but imho a common theme in forums is Nvidia drivers and SLI is better than AMD's, maybe their approach works ?

Doubtfull, that's pure marketing spins as the one who designs the chipsets are AMD and Intel and they're very competent with that. Even AMD's approach to use Sata 6GBps is better as it doesn't use any existin PCI-E lanes from the southbridge like Intel does. May be the common theme that you are talking about is on the nVidia forums, but here, they trade blows, and you will find both, praising and disgusted people of either camp.

 

[taltamir]

Nvidia controls the environment around SLI and PhysX to also assure the quality of the product. or at least they try. SLI is only licensed to 8x-8x or better. We know what they do with phsyX, their driver only works with Nvidia gpu's. With SLI, you get the bridge,(s) with your m/b. AMD charges for crossfire support as well. Take a look at your m/b, the crossfire(tm) is engraved near the pci-e ports.
Thats not free.

Does it work ?
Well we hear plenty of complaints from AMD fans about Nvidia rules, but imho a common theme in forums is Nvidia drivers and SLI is better than AMD's, maybe their approach works ?

What we don't hear is Nvidia's drivers screwed up my AMD system,when I tried to run PhysX games. That is what could happen, if they allowed their driver to officially run on AMD main gpu systems. The VGA driver controls the windows GUI and can cause the most system troubles or at least throw errors from other system instabilities.
Nvidia and AMD tech support would be pointing fingers at each other as to a users problems.
Which is also why SLI is not supported with AMD chipsets. All data traffic is routed through there/driver.
ALL imho.

By that argument nVidia working with a non nVidia CPU, non nVidia OS, non nVidia game engine, etc would have a plethora of issues and a QA nightmare.
This is nvidia's marketing spin which simply does not hold water.

Also, you say that is your humble opinion, but actually those are nVidia's marketing claims which you state verbatim. It is entirely possible for you to simply believe every word out of nVidia's marketing department... but it is entirely unnecessary for you to state IMHO... When a person makes a statement, that statement is automatically declared as their opinion by virtue of the structure of language. If the info is subjective, then your opinion is its content, your subjective preference (eg: Penut butter is the tastiest food ever! Subjective statement, thus I am clearly stating that my personal preference for food is that penut butter is the most delicious). If it the info is objective then your opinion is that it is a true statement (eg: TRIM works on windows 7. An objective statement, it is automatically declared that my opinion is that it is a true subjective opinion).

 

[notty22]

By that argument nVidia working with a non nVidia CPU, non nVidia OS, non nVidia game engine, etc would have a plethora of issues and a QA nightmare.
This is nvidia's marketing spin which simply does not hold water.

Also, you say that is your humble opinion, but actually those are nVidia's marketing claims which you state verbatim. It is entirely possible for you to simply believe every word out of nVidia's marketing department... but it is entirely unnecessary for you to state IMHO... When a person makes a statement, that statement is automatically declared as their opinion by virtue of the structure of language. If the info is subjective, then your opinion is its content, your subjective preference (eg: Penut butter is the tastiest food ever! Subjective statement, thus I am clearly stating that my personal preference for food is that penut butter is the most delicious). If it the info is objective then your opinion is that it is a true statement (eg: TRIM works on windows 7. An objective statement, it is automatically declared that my opinion is that it is a true subjective opinion).

Lol, your a little obsessed with drm and looking for bad guys and good guys from companies ?

Although countering that is:
1. They make more than 5$ per card; and with SLI its 2 cards.
2. They would have a chance to "steal" an AMD fan or ex AMD fans who still have AMD mobos.
3. A person might just not think the 5-10% extra CPU speed from an intel is worth all that money, but want and be able to afford an overpowered GPU setup.
4. The person just might hate intel, rather then being an AMD fan.

I find all this reasoning, naive, but thats me personally

 

[taltamir]

Lol, your a little obsessed with drm

I admit, I think DRM is pure evil. Well, ok a thing can never be good or evil, but in practice it is used only for evil.
Also:
You're = You are
Your = Something which belongs to you.

I don't own "a little obsessed" so you're incorrect in using "your" here.
"You are a little obsessed" would be correct, so use you're.

and looking for bad guys and good guys from companies ?

I am not sure what you mean by this assessment of my character. I am not particularly out to rendering judgement on companies and have not even considered the morality of the issue until you specifically said this.
Now that I am considering it: While I do distinguish between good and evil, I think this situation is a case of mismanagement that costs them money. There is nothing evil about their policy. And while DRM is evil; I think it is entirely possible for a person to do an evil thing out of ignorance or stupidity without being evil themselves. So no, I do not think nvidia is evil.

 

[TransistorsX]

I admit, I think DRM is pure evil. Well, ok a thing can never be good or evil, but in practice it is used only for evil.
Also:
You're = You are
Your = Something which belongs to you.

I don't own "a little obsessed" so your is incorrect here.
"You are a little obsessed" would be correct, so use you're.


I am not sure what you mean by this assessment of my character. I am not particularly out to rendering judgement on companies and have not even considered the morality of the issue until you specifically said this.
Now that I am considering it: While I do distinguish between good and evil, I think this situation is a case of mismanagement that costs them money. There is nothing evil about their policy. And while DRM is evil; I think it is entirely possible for a person to do an evil thing out of ignorance or stupidity without being evil themselves. So no, I do not think nvidia is evil.

Great post, this is ain't about good or evil, you pretty much gave the bait a huge home run to the moon.

 

[beakynb]

Wow, I didn't envisage starting a war here, so let's remember that there will be promotors and detractors for every technology or company. I'm just throwing a suggestion out here that NV are missing an opportunity.

DRM is an a way evil but I get what NV are doing here with licensing etc and maybe this makes them enough money and keeps control of how SLI functions on AMD. I do think this is a little naive of NV though.

OK, so more people buy intel but there are still a lot of people buying AMD chipset motherboards. There are undoutedly significantly less people doing SLI or Crossfire for each platform but those that do and prefer AMD CPU's are being restricted in their options.

Beaky

 

[notty22]

It takes 2 (companies) to come to a agreement.
SLI did, does exist on some AMD boards, WITH Nvidia chipsets. They are competing companies with competing technologies /sli-crossfire.
You can choose to believe there are technical / short and long term business reasons why conditions exist or you can blindly theorize and scream rhetoric and brain washing.

 

[beakynb]

It takes 2 (companies) to come to a agreement.
SLI did, does exist on some AMD boards, WITH Nvidia chipsets. They are competing companies with competing technologies /sli-crossfire.
You can choose to believe there are technical / short and long term business reasons why conditions exist or you can blindly theorize and scream rhetoric and brain washing.

Yeah, again, I realise that there still are NV chipsets out there but they're starting to get left behind now by the AMD chipsets. It won't take long before NV chipsets are either unviable or no more.

I just find it frustrating that technically SLI on AMD chipset will work but you have to hack it to do it, rather than just using a straight NV driver.

Beaky