future of energy storage

[IHateMyJob2004]

I've mentioned it once or twice. Herre's a short argument.

In the future, cars will not be hydrogen based. They will use capacitors for storage. Currently, capacitors are being used for watches and flashlights...not batteries.

Why?
Well, when capacitors of 1 Farad used to be the size of a room. Today, one Farad can be held in your hand. what tomorrow? Well, not necessarily capacitors but possibly nanotubes:

From: http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/WPW/Power/ElectricStor.htm

NEC and Sony are jointly developing a laptop battery that draws on ability of carbon nanotubes to store energy. The companies claim that the battery will last weeks between charges. Mitsubishi and Motorola are also pursuing CN-based batteries, which offer the potential of assuming any shape or even being embedded in a device's plastic casing. (PC Magazine, July 2004, p 137.)

OIK, I know. That's for laptops. Point is it's the idea of miniturization of electrical storage devices while retaining the storage capacity. Over time, this will occur, whether it's nanotubes or capacitors. And prices will drop and it will be realizable option for vehicles. And with lower weight, vehicles will actualyl require less stored energy per mile! Making redundant vehicles would also be a possiblity. It's not hard to make the front wheels powered by system A and back wheels powered by system B. if one fails, you can still drive it to a repair center.

I don't understand all this hydrogen hype. It might be a technology we use in the future, but I don't see it's day lasting more than 10-20 years. With just electrical storage, there would be fewer parts an/or fewer types of parts. might have one "storage cell" or 100 in parallel. Same technology is the point.

The future is good!

And with solar/wind/etc, storing and transporting energy will be realizable. Imagine large semis that are essentially "stored eelctrons" driviing down the road jsut like we se oil trucks today! 😉

 

[Mandos]

Very cool. a+ to this information.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: Mandos
Very cool. a+ to this information.

Thanks, I'm glad it was appreciated. Makes me really want to consider investing in the ocmapnies developing these technologies. Still speculative at this point, but imagine if it grew to the size of oil companies 😉

 

[HardcoreRobot]

this is great. currently one of the largest concerns with the ever-expanding gadgety lifestyle is the issue of battery life

 

[rahvin]

And when that capacitor powering your car explodeds and takes out half a city block? The future energy economy is a hydrogen transport based one.

 

[Bateluer]

Originally posted by: rahvin
And when that capacitor powering your car explodeds and takes out half a city block? The future energy economy is a hydrogen transport based one.

Wouldn't hydrogen be more volatile than a giant capacitor?

 

[redly]

I worked on a Hybrid Electric vehicle project for GM, where the main energy storage component was a bank of 2.3V 2500F Ultracapacitors in series to get 600V+. They worked OK, but they release the some pretty nasty gas when they fail, not to mention flames about 15 feet high out of one 2x2x5inch capacitor. I think the discussion I heard was "Do we really want to have one of our busses fail in a traffic jam in downtown Manhattan, next to a school bus and a car load of nuns. It will be like sending them to the gas chamber. Think of the PR"

Thus our switch to NiMH batteries 🙂

 

[Rogue]

Carbon nanotubes have been getting a lot of attention lately. Can't say I really understand them, but I read yesterday about FED televisions which use diamond particulates or carbon nanotubes on a glass panel similar to the phosphors on current CRT tubes. It was quite interesting.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: rahvin
And when that capacitor powering your car explodeds and takes out half a city block? The future energy economy is a hydrogen transport based one.

CITY BLOCK? Explosion, OK. City block wiped out...NO


I know hydrogne storage is as safe as gasoline storage, but that can cause problems to.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: redly
I worked on a Hybrid Electric vehicle project for GM, where the main energy storage component was a bank of 2.3V 2500F Ultracapacitors in series to get 600V+. They worked OK, but they release the some pretty nasty gas when they fail, not to mention flames about 15 feet high out of one 2x2x5inch capacitor. I think the discussion I heard was "Do we really want to have one of our busses fail in a traffic jam in downtown Manhattan, next to a school bus and a car load of nuns. It will be like sending them to the gas chamber. Think of the PR"

Thus our switch to NiMH batteries 🙂

True. But in the future, one can only assume this shortfalls will be remedied.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: rahvin
And when that capacitor powering your car explodeds and takes out half a city block? The future energy economy is a hydrogen transport based one.

Source? Please tell me you are joking. What's causing hte explosiong here?


I know hydrogne storage is as safe as gasoline storage, but that can cause problems to.

When you have that much energy stored in a small space, believe me, things go Boom. Capacitors can cause some pretty serious damage.

That said, I don't think the future is hydrogen either.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: rahvin
And when that capacitor powering your car explodeds and takes out half a city block? The future energy economy is a hydrogen transport based one.

Source? Please tell me you are joking. What's causing hte explosiong here?


I know hydrogne storage is as safe as gasoline storage, but that can cause problems to.

When you have that much energy stored in a small space, believe me, things go Boom. Capacitors can cause some pretty serious damage.

That said, I don't think the future is hydrogen either.

Hehehee, I edited my post 🙂 I totally agree with you. Safegaurds can be put in, but htey are still simply safegards that can eventually fail. There has to be a way though.

EDIT:
Hydrogen storage is equivilient to gasoline storage in terms of safety. Due to the membranes in whcih hydrogen is stored in such applications. It's not pressurized gas.

 

[Schneider879]

Good read, thanks.

 

[axnff]

Originally posted by: rahvin
And when that capacitor powering your car explodeds and takes out half a city block? The future energy economy is a hydrogen transport based one.

The point of the article is that these are not your typical supercapacitors that release all their energy at once. These nanotube capacitors apparently work closer to the operation of a battery in that there is a practical limit to the voltage and current output. The output of a supercap varies exponentially with its level of charge (as it supplies higher voltage and higher current, with both diminishing as the supercap is depleted) which is what makes them potentially dangerous...

Hopefully, the voltage has a meaningful, level output irrespective of current draw (much like lithium or NiMH cells) - that would be the most useful, but probably most difficult...

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Originally posted by: axnff

Originally posted by: rahvin
And when that capacitor powering your car explodeds and takes out half a city block? The future energy economy is a hydrogen transport based one.

The point of the article is that these are not your typical supercapacitors that release all their energy at once. These nanotube capacitors apparently work closer to the operation of a battery in that there is a practical limit to the voltage and current output. The output of a supercap varies exponentially with its level of charge (as it supplies higher voltage and higher current, with both diminishing as the supercap is depleted) which is what makes them potentially dangerous...

Hopefully, the voltage has a meaningful, level output irrespective of current draw (much like lithium or NiMH cells) - that would be the most useful, but probably most difficult...

Interesting point and additon to the covnersation. I didn't think about that aspect of nanaotubes.

PS: the volatage output is limited to the voltage rating of hte battery or charge on a cap. Limiting the current is what is important. That's where arcing could cause problems.

 

[jagec]

Some of the typical uses for lead acid gel batteries are, wheel chairs, hospital equipment, emergency lighting, computer power backup, and building burger alarm backup.

So they use them at McDonald's to make sure the burgers don't escape?😕

 

[Eli]

Um, no?

Where are you going to get the energy to charge the caps?

Basically you're saying we will be moving to electric automobiles, which I don't see happening anytime soon. But more power to them if we can find the technology.

The nanotube technology does sound interesting. Maybe.. just maybe.. if we can get it small, yet powerful enough..

But there is a big difference between propelling a 2500lb hunk of metal at 60MPH through space..... and powering a laptop. 😉 I'd say we'll need something between now and then.. and maybe hydrogen will be it.

Hydrogen is also electricity based, though.. unless we find a better way to make it.

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: IHateMyJob2004

Originally posted by: axnff

Originally posted by: rahvin
And when that capacitor powering your car explodeds and takes out half a city block? The future energy economy is a hydrogen transport based one.

The point of the article is that these are not your typical supercapacitors that release all their energy at once. These nanotube capacitors apparently work closer to the operation of a battery in that there is a practical limit to the voltage and current output. The output of a supercap varies exponentially with its level of charge (as it supplies higher voltage and higher current, with both diminishing as the supercap is depleted) which is what makes them potentially dangerous...

Hopefully, the voltage has a meaningful, level output irrespective of current draw (much like lithium or NiMH cells) - that would be the most useful, but probably most difficult...

Interesting point and additon to the covnersation. I didn't think about that aspect of nanaotubes.

PS: the volatage output is limited to the voltage rating of hte battery or charge on a cap. Limiting the current is what is important. That's where arcing could cause problems.

Look if the capacitor is capable of arcing it's capable of explosive releases of energy. There are a lot of things that can cause a capacitor to fail ranging from over-volt to heat but it all boils down to this, if there is a failure of the insulating layer the energy release will collapse all the other layers and the resulting burst of energy is sufficient to cause serious damage. I've seen small capacitors rip bread boards in half when they failed with probably the explosive charge of an M80. The amount of energy storage required for a car is going to be tremendous and if that energy is released in a burst it would have amazing destructive power probably on the level of a car bomb.

Hydrogen is far safer than gasoline, because of it's light weight nature hydrogen on release heads straight up (unlike gasoline fumes). It also has to be mixed pretty throughly with oxygen to explode and again given it's physical traits that is pretty unlikely. Polymer based hydrogen fuel cells are the future powerplants and hydrogen is our energy transition method.