Future Minded Budget Build

[mishimaBeef]

Please bear with me as this post is a bit lengthy. I hope I have touched on some interesting points and asked some key questions to spark discussion. I would like to thank those of you who read it ahead of time.

My plans are to get a decent budget gaming machine up and running right now and in the future make significant upgrades.

Planned upgrades:

- upgrade to a top of the line CPU (and overclock it to a respectable amount using aftermarket cooling)

- upgrade to a mid-high range video card and later get a second to run dual (CrossfireX or SLI, not sure which is better?) video cards

- upgrade the cooling systems (sooner is better to keep my components healthy?)

- ensure a strong source of good RAM (4gb to start, thinking of going to 8gb in future)

My machine will be running Win 7 Home Premium for now and will be used for high end gaming (1920x1080 for now), surfing the web, and whatever else I decide to dabble in seeing as how technology has really taken off in the last five years .

I believe that for this to work out how I want there are a few key components that I should not go cheap on for now (correct me if im wrong).

High Quality Components to Buy

- motherboard (!! this should have SLI or CrossfireX support (which is better btw?) 2x16 (beats 1x16, 1x8 right?), preferably USB 3.0 (future proofing), good RAM support, my friend said something about the northbridge being important)

- case + cooling system (extra intake fan or two for now?)

- power supply? (might as well get a strong one now since it's more efficient? also should I risk my motherboard?)

Low Quality Components to Buy

- CPU (something cheap in the $100 range, will upgrade later) - thinking athlon series Athlon II X4 620 but I have to look around more since the Athlon II X3 440 (with its higher clock speed) was suggested by some and was argued better for gaming

- Video Card (thinking asus en9800gt, will upgrade this later)

========

My budget is rather low around $550-$600 (PS. I live in canada, funds are in canadian (divide by 1.03 for US) ) + cost of monitor.
Here is my build so far (please make suggestions to missing components).

Asus EN9800 GT 512 Mb - $90

HP DVD Writer - $22

Western Digital 500 Gb Hard Drive - $40

Corsair TX 750W to run the future setup? Or should I get a 450 W for now and upgrade the supply later?

Please suggest a motherboard - been looking at the ASUS M4A89TD PRO/USB3 but my friend said that the northbridge is not so good and he said the northbridge is important because it communicates with the video card - ALSO I was slightly concerned because this card has CrossfireX support but the latest benchmarks indicate that SLI is the better choice (though my friend says the Nvidia cards have problems with heat)

Please suggest compatible RAM

Please suggest a compatible cpu (been thinking about Athlon II X4 620 2.6 GHz)

Please suggest a case that can comfortable manage my future setup (been looking at the Antec 300 ATX Mid Tower, thoughts?)

Extra intake fans?

Asus VH242H Black 23.6" 5ms HDMI Full 1080P Widescreen LCD Monitor - $210

====

I realize I have asked a lot here and I hope that I can spark some discussion. I really appreciate any help I can get as I need to order parts as soon as possible to give them time to arrive before I leave for school. I look forward to reading your responses.

 

[Davidh373]

Athlon II X4 $99.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-702-_-Product

MSI AM3 870 $99.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-275-_-Product

GSkill DDR3 1333 4GB $81.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-253-_-Product

Samsung Spinpoint F3 $54.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-181-_-Product

Coolermaster Gladiator $54.99 + $16.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...37;20gladiator

Coolermaster GX 650W $69.99 + $1.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-052-_-Product

ASUS CD/DVD $17.99 + $2.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-201-_-Product

That 9800GT will work for now, but might not get you to 1080p. That monitor isn't going to fit in a $600 budget for a gaming computer. The PSU is 80+ certified and should handle one medium-high end card, but for SLI or Crossfire (SLI seems to be better, but neither are at all necessary fyi, you are better off putting the extra money saved into a $200-$300 G-Card for your next upgrade) aren't going to be handled under 650W. The case has good airflow.


EDIT: Total: $500.91

 

[mishimaBeef]

That 9800GT will work for now, but might not get you to 1080p. That monitor isn't going to fit in a $600 budget for a gaming computer.

It says the max resolution for the asus en9800 gt is 2560 x 1600, wouldn't that get me to 1080p?

Also I was trying to say that my budget is $600 + cost of monitor so something like $600 + $200 = $800

 

[DSF]

It says the max resolution for the asus en9800 gt is 2560 x 1600, wouldn't that get me to 1080p?

Also I was trying to say that my budget is $600 + cost of monitor so something like $600 + $200 = $800

I think he meant that you might have trouble playing games smoothly at that resolution. The max resolution a video card can output and whether it not it can display a game at that resolution at an acceptable frame rate are two different things.

How long are you expecting it to be until you can make these planned upgrades?

 

[mfenn]

What would've been so wrong with updating your other thread about this same build?

Anyway, you're going down a path that a lot of new budget system builders go down. Let me tell you from experience, it won't end well.

With only $600, if you "invest" in an SLI/Crossfire-capable board and a huge power supply, you're just ensuring that you get mediocre performance because you'll not have enough money left over for the important bits.

But "upgrades!" you say? There are two scenarios there: short-term and long term.

Short-term:
The 1055T looks like a nice upgrade at $200, right? It doesn't look so nice at $300, which is what it really cost when you consider that you essentially wasted $100 on an X4 635. Same deal for GPUs.

Long-term:
A couple of years down the line, you're ready for that shiny CPU or GPU upgrade.

So, you're researching and you find that all of the current best CPUs use a different platform, and thus your fancy Crossfire/SLI-capable motherboard is useless and you're going to have to buy whole new motherboard anyway. You then realize that you wasted that $80 that you spent on a fancy mobo, and that makes the difference between getting a Phenom IV X8 and a Phenom IV X12.

You then begin to search ebay for a matching GPU to finally take advantage of some Crossfire/SLI goodness. You discover that sellers with non-busted kit want 50%-75% of the original purchase price! You say, "OK, that's still a bunch of money saved!" Then you look at the performance charts and find that a brand new single card with more than double the performance of your old card is available for a comparable price.

That's not even getting into the fact that buying an oversized PSU will cause you to be below 20% load at idle and thus not getting that 80+ efficiency that the sticker promised.

Moral of the story: future-proofing is impossible, but you sure can waste a lot of money trying. The platform will change, forcing you to buy a new mobo anyway, so don't bother with a fancy one unless you actually need those features right now.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I agree with mfenn. The only way that SLI/CF matters, is if you are going to invest in them fully RIGHT NOW, to enjoy in the present, not as some vague future thing.

Which means, an 890FX chipset (for full dual x16 PCI-E 2.0 lanes), or an X58 chipset (which can do CF as well as SLI). And then the cost for two fairly powerful graphics cards.

Budget builds should be just that - budget. Don't think to aim for the sky with upgrade possibilities. You will just end up spending more money in the first place, only to be replaced by other components or even an entire system in the future.

 

[Davidh373]

What would've been so wrong with updating your other thread about this same build?

Anyway, you're going down a path that a lot of new budget system builders go down. Let me tell you from experience, it won't end well.

With only $600, if you "invest" in an SLI/Crossfire-capable board and a huge power supply, you're just ensuring that you get mediocre performance because you'll not have enough money left over for the important bits.

But "upgrades!" you say? There are two scenarios there: short-term and long term.

Short-term:
The 1055T looks like a nice upgrade at $200, right? It doesn't look so nice at $300, which is what it really cost when you consider that you essentially wasted $100 on an X4 635. Same deal for GPUs.

Long-term:
A couple of years down the line, you're ready for that shiny CPU or GPU upgrade.

So, you're researching and you find that all of the current best CPUs use a different platform, and thus your fancy Crossfire/SLI-capable motherboard is useless and you're going to have to buy whole new motherboard anyway. You then realize that you wasted that $80 that you spent on a fancy mobo, and that makes the difference between getting a Phenom IV X8 and a Phenom IV X12.

You then begin to search ebay for a matching GPU to finally take advantage of some Crossfire/SLI goodness. You discover that sellers with non-busted kit want 50%-75% of the original purchase price! You say, "OK, that's still a bunch of money saved!" Then you look at the performance charts and find that a brand new single card with more than double the performance of your old card is available for a comparable price.

That's not even getting into the fact that buying an oversized PSU will cause you to be below 20% load at idle and thus not getting that 80+ efficiency that the sticker promised.

Moral of the story: future-proofing is impossible, but you sure can waste a lot of money trying. The platform will change, forcing you to buy a new mobo anyway, so don't bother with a fancy one unless you actually need those features right now.

Everything is correct here.

 

[mishimaBeef]

This is one of the best forums and I really love to come here and learn from you guys. Thanks so much for sharing from experience. Today I was beginning to think I should just go back to my original plan and you guys have thoroughly convinced me. Now, time to go re-read all of mfenn's replies to my posts again .

 

[mishimaBeef]

Budget with monitor, taxes and shipping is $1000. So looking at around $550-$600 for the computer. Here are the monitors I'm deciding between:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...-049-_-Product

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...-052-_-Product

Okay here is what I'm thinking:

Video Card ~$100
Processor ~$100
Motherboard ~$100
RAM ~$100
Power Supply, Case, Hard Drive, DVD Writer, Extra fan(s) ~$150-$200

What do you guys think? Should I go cheaper with the motherboard? My plans are to game at 1920x1080, surf the web and do other random techie stuff that I might get into. Future plans are to upgrade CPU and GPU to mid-high end and whatever else needs to be upgraded (ie. more RAM, more cooling). Planning to run Win 7 Home Premium 64 Bit (is OEM okay?). Am interested in overclocking but would prefer to start with stock cooling (don't want to overcomplicate my first build with aftermarket cooling?)

Processors I'm trying to decide between:
Phenom II X2 555 BE 3.2 GHz
Athlon II X4 635 2.9 GHz
Athlon II X3 445 3.1 GHz

Motherboards I'm trying to decide between (been looking at Asus mostly):
Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3
MSI 790X-G45
Asus M4A77TD
Asus M4A77T/USB3
Asus M4A87TD EVO

Should I go cheaper with the mobo? $80?

For video card I'm thinking Asus EN9800 GT 512 MB.

RAM, something decent and 2x2Gb.

Power supply probably just stick a Corsair TX 650 and call it a day.

Case been looking at Antec 300 + 2 front intake fans but slightly concerned since there is no hole behind the motherboard tray to remove the cooler's retention plate. Gladiator 600??

Thoughts?

 

[mfenn]

Budget with monitor, taxes and shipping is $1000. So looking at around $550-$600 for the computer. Here are the monitors I'm deciding between:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...-049-_-Product

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product...-052-_-Product

Okay here is what I'm thinking:

Video Card ~$100
Processor ~$100
Motherboard ~$100
RAM ~$100
Power Supply, Case, Hard Drive, DVD Writer, Extra fan(s) ~$150-$200

What do you guys think? Should I go cheaper with the motherboard? My plans are to game at 1920x1080, surf the web and do other random techie stuff that I might get into. Future plans are to upgrade CPU and GPU to mid-high end and whatever else needs to be upgraded (ie. more RAM, more cooling). Planning to run Win 7 Home Premium 64 Bit (is OEM okay?). Am interested in overclocking but would prefer to start with stock cooling (don't want to overcomplicate my first build with aftermarket cooling?)

Processors I'm trying to decide between:
Phenom II X2 555 BE 3.2 GHz
Athlon II X4 635 2.9 GHz
Athlon II X3 445 3.1 GHz

Motherboards I'm trying to decide between (been looking at Asus mostly):
Gigabyte GA-870A-UD3
MSI 790X-G45
Asus M4A77TD
Asus M4A77T/USB3
Asus M4A87TD EVO

Should I go cheaper with the mobo? $80?

For video card I'm thinking Asus EN9800 GT 512 MB.

RAM, something decent and 2x2Gb.

Power supply probably just stick a Corsair TX 650 and call it a day.

Case been looking at Antec 300 + 2 front intake fans but slightly concerned since there is no hole behind the motherboard tray to remove the cooler's retention plate. Gladiator 600??

Thoughts?

Your general plan seems sound. I would probably try to shave a bit off the mobo (the M4A77TD is fine) and PSU (go with the 400CX ~$40 AR) so that you can fit a 5770 into the build.

Of the CPU's you listed I would probably go for the X3 445 because it's a decent compromise between the core count of a quad and the clock speed of the dual.

For case, pick what you like the looks of. I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of access to the back of the motherboard. It's certainly a nice feature, but it sounds like you're just going to be using the stock HSF which does not require you to do anything with a backplate.

 

[mishimaBeef]

Cool, sometimes I get paranoid that the power supply won't be enough to support my components so I guess I will do some research. After I upgrade the CPU tho, I will need a stronger power supply? Also, do I have to take out the whole motherboard if I change CPUs and want to install a new heat sink for overclocking?

EDIT: Why are the reviews relatively low on that video card?

 

[mishimaBeef]

Do you think I can overclock the Athlon II X3 445 from 3.1 to 4.0 GHz? Will I need aftermarket cooling? Will any of the motherboards I listed safely accomplish this? I read somewhere about 1600 RAM being best for O.C. can someone explain this to me?

And what power supply will be needed to run something like Phenom II X6 1090T 3.2GHz overclocked to 4.0GHz or more and a GTX 460 or better overclocked? Is cooling system a major issue or will 2-3 case fans and aftermarket CPU heatsink be enough?

Also, in the side fans do you make then exhaust or intake fans on the case?

 

[mishimaBeef]

Your general plan seems sound. I would probably try to shave a bit off the mobo (the M4A77TD is fine) and PSU (go with the 400CX ~$40 AR) so that you can fit a 5770 into the build.

Of the CPU's you listed I would probably go for the X3 445 because it's a decent compromise between the core count of a quad and the clock speed of the dual.

For case, pick what you like the looks of. I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of access to the back of the motherboard. It's certainly a nice feature, but it sounds like you're just going to be using the stock HSF which does not require you to do anything with a backplate.

Is the 5770 going to survive on 400W?

 

[mfenn]

Cool, sometimes I get paranoid that the power supply won't be enough to support my components so I guess I will do some research. After I upgrade the CPU tho, I will need a stronger power supply? Also, do I have to take out the whole motherboard if I change CPUs and want to install a new heat sink for overclocking?

EDIT: Why are the reviews relatively low on that video card?

Different CPU's don't really change the power requirements much. The X3 445 uses at most 95W whereas the top end 1090 uses 125W max. As for the heatsink, it depends on how it mounts. If it is a bolt-through, you would need to remove the motherboard if you can't get access to the back while it's in the case.

As for the reviews on the GPU, they look fine to me. The only 1 egg review that I saw was from an idiot complaining that the card "only has a 30 day warranty" when it clearly has a 3 year warranty.

Do you think I can overclock the Athlon II X3 445 from 3.1 to 4.0 GHz? Will I need aftermarket cooling? Will any of the motherboards I listed safely accomplish this? I read somewhere about 1600 RAM being best for O.C. can someone explain this to me?

And what power supply will be needed to run something like Phenom II X6 1090T 3.2GHz overclocked to 4.0GHz or more and a GTX 460 or better overclocked? Is cooling system a major issue or will 2-3 case fans and aftermarket CPU heatsink be enough?

Also, in the side fans do you make then exhaust or intake fans on the case?

A 445 at 4.0 is a bit optimistic, I'd say. You'd definitely need aftermarket cooling to even attempt that. The motherboards you listed aren't extreme overclocking boards, but they will do fine for your purposes.

As for the memory, 1600 is generally recommended for overclocking as it gives you more room to play with the dividers in order to keep the memory in spec while increasing the FSB.

For a overclocked 1090T and GTX 460, you'll be looking at a 650W. Remember what we talked about earlier though? You should not be planning to replace parts in the short-term because your original part essentially becomes a waste of money.

Heat is a problem when overclocking, but with case fans, you will be fine. I would probably make a side fan an intake fan since it will typically located right above the CPU or GPU which can benefit from a direct source of cool air.

 

[mfenn]

Is the 5770 going to survive on 400W?

400W is plenty for a 5770 and a 445.

 

[mishimaBeef]

As for the reviews on the GPU, they look fine to me. The only 1 egg review that I saw was from an idiot complaining that the card "only has a 30 day warranty" when it clearly has a 3 year warranty.

Lol, too good! Okay, so should I go with the one you linked? I ask because there are so many 5770 on the market and I want to get a decent one or are they all decent ? How about factory overclocked, which one is that, I saw it in a video of a home build.

Also about the 400W, I asked because on the specs for 5770 I read it said 450 W minimum! :*( ?

Finally, suppose I was going into this build with the plan of maximum safe overclocking, would you suggest the quad core? I ask because I was just

 

[mfenn]

Lol, too good! Okay, so should I go with the one you linked? I ask because there are so many 5770 on the market and I want to get a decent one or are they all decent ? How about factory overclocked, which one is that, I saw it in a video of a home build.

Also about the 400W, I asked because on the specs for 5770 I read it said 450 W minimum! :*( ?

Finally, suppose I was going into this build with the plan of maximum safe overclocking, would you suggest the quad core? I ask because I was just

All 5770 are pretty decent, so you can usually just buy the cheapest. As for the "450W requirement", that's just a CYA mechanism on the part of ATI to protect people who have crappy PSU's that can't put out their rated wattage.

 

[mishimaBeef]

Okay cool man, I will cook up a sort of "final draft" list and post it sometime between tomorrow and Saturday before I start purchasing parts. Gonna hit the sack for now, have a good night.

 

[mikeford]

Good place to save some money is a used monitor, check for bad pixels and bad reviews, then hit the local Craigslist or Kajii or whatever. People are giving away decent old CRTs, and around $100 buys a nice flat panel.

 

[mishimaBeef]

Finally, suppose I was going into this build with the plan of maximum safe overclocking, would you suggest the quad core X4 over the X3?

I ask because a lot of people talk about the need for quad core in the future. Also, Bad Company 2 has recommended specs that say quad core .

 

[mfenn]

Finally, suppose I was going into this build with the plan of maximum safe overclocking, would you suggest the quad core X4 over the X3?

I ask because a lot of people talk about the need for quad core in the future. Also, Bad Company 2 has recommended specs that say quad core .

If you're going to overclock it, you might as well get the quad.

 

[mishimaBeef]

What motherboard or what kind of motherboard is the best for overclocking? Also is RAM important, how so?

 

[mfenn]

What motherboard or what kind of motherboard is the best for overclocking? Also is RAM important, how so?

For light overclocking (ie stock volts or close which is what you want to do) pretty much any quality motherboard is fine. The RAM is less important than it used to be. Any 1600 will leave you plenty of room to play with the memory dividers to keep the RAM in spec.

 

[mishimaBeef]

One more thing sir, could you explain why the motherboard RAM specs have an O.C. spec? What does this mean?

 

[Sp12]

Jedec has only approved DDR3 up to 1333 speeds. Hence, mobos can only officially support up to that, and some platforms only support up to 1066 officially. However, if they have an (OC) spec listed that means the board can handle running ram at that speed, even though Jedec hasn't approved it yet.