EDIT: found the model number:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207653087/
Bryant 394GAD024050 ... 50,000 BTU
I'm assuming I'd need something even smaller at 90-95%+ efficiency. So can you help me out with my other questions?
Disclaimer: long, detailed read - hoping to get some quantifiable advice and would really appreciate some help!
Alright guys/gals, it's starting to get chilly, the tax credit is expiring, and my furnace is acting up ... which is motivating me to replace my water heater and furnace for new models. I've done some homework but I need some recommendations on next steps. Any HVAC people in here? Some bits of info on my current situation:
1) I bought a condo over a year ago which has a 25 year old gas furnace and gas water heater, both located in the basement and roughly 6ft from the outside. Piping is galvanized steel. Both are near end of life, efficiency is probably pretty bad, furnace is starting to act up and the cost to run a gas water heater during non-winter months is quite expensive.
2) I have (estimated) 1200sq ft of livable area and maybe 1400 or so total area if you include bathrooms and closets, over 2 floors + basement. Definitely not over 1500.
3) I'm in the Tristate area (OH/KY/IN) so I fall right on the line of the Zone 1 & 2 crossover: http://www.rheem.com/Products/tank_water_heaters/Hybrid_electric/efficiency
4) I can't figure out the model of my current furnace. The only number that was on the label was 518bxx018000maaa and it's made by Bryant, but Google doesn't return anything.
5) Over the past year I have used:
-Gas: 501 CCF (42 avg)
-Electric: 7612 kWh (634 avg)
6) My current rates are:
-Gas:
Fixed Delivery Service Charge: $ 25.33
Usage-Based Charge: $ 0.03272800 per
Gas Delivery Riders: $8.65
Gas Cost Recovery: $ 0.58539110 per
-Electric:
Distribution-Customer Chg: $ 5.50
Delivery Charges
Distribution-Energy Chg: $ 0.02212600 per
Delivery Riders: $ 5.51
Generation Charges
Generation Energy Chg $ 0.04234500 per
Rider FPP: $ 19.30
Rider AAC: $ 4.04
Rider TCR: $ 2.86
Here you can see why I want to move to an electric or hybrid water heater: I'm paying around $34/month just to have gas active and I'm only using it regularly for 3-4 months. If that leaves me with 8 months of no gas usage, that's a savings of $270/year right there. While some of this might be eaten up by a higher cost of water heating via electricity, shouldn't the extra efficiency of current heaters (25 years later) make up for this difference, thereby actually giving me a savings of $270/year or so on water heating alone?
7) I spoke with 1 guy so far on the phone who said it was probably a 115,000 BTU model, but maybe 78% or so efficient at the start, and possibly no more than 50% efficient now. It's probably not that big though. I played around with a calculator ( http://www.duke-energy.com/ohio/savings/heating-system-calculator.asp ) and came up with this:
Savings:
Annual Dollars $170-$280
Lifetime Dollars $3,300-$5,500
kWh 90-150 kWh/yr
Natural Gas (Therms) 130-220 CCF/yr
CO2 1,700-2,800 lbs/yr
Cost:
System Type Forced Air Furnace
Estimated Size 16,900-28,100 BTU
Estimated Replacement Cost $1,700-$2,800
Estimated Annual Energy Cost $400-$700
Not sure how to read into this though, and it still doesn't help me determine what model I need. I'm a little confused looking at this.
8) I have ok insulation. All windows are double pane, no areas with noticeable drafts, and a moderate amount of fiberglass in the attic. Condo has units on either side as well with a noise wall in-between, so heat probably doesn't escape much through the sides. Newer windows would help I'm sure, but don't know if it's worth the cost at this point.
9) Pics:
Furnace & water heater:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325521/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207921774/
Clearance/distance to outside & breaker box position:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325395/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325339/
Another view of the venting (if it matters) :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325181/
The only tag on the furnace, failed attempt to identify model:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325119/
-----------
So, here are my questions:
1) How do I figure out how efficient/inefficient my current model is? I need this to come up with a good figure for how much I'd be saving with a new furnace.
2) When upgrading furnaces, any gas furnace over 90% Thermal Efficiency/AFUE will qualify for the tax credit, but does it make sense to go for something above 90%? 93%? 95%? 97%? Is the extra cost worth it? ( http://www.ahrinet.org/Content/FederalTaxCredits_896.aspx )
3) Are the extra features worth the extra cost (single vs. dual stage firing, also single vs. multi vs. variable speed fans)?
4) Do the brands matter much? I read it's not a big deal either way, but the general ones are: American Standard, Bryant, Carrier, Lennox, Rheem, Trane, Goodman.
5) It seems to be a bit difficult to do online comparison shopping (or comparison shopping in general) for these things. So far I have found this: http://www.shop.thefurnaceoutlet.com/Gas-Furnaces-95-Efficient-Upflow_c9.htm
So I'm guessing it's somewhere in the $1000-1200 range for a 90,000BTU or so 95% multi/variable speed unit, if that's in fact what I need.
6) I hear installation costs vary wildly ... how wildly? How much did you pay for yours? How much am I looking at for extra work (the guy I spoke too said I'd need a new breaker box for the electric water heater and some new PVC piping).
7) How long of a warranty is necessary on any of these? Do these warranties have service call charges (like a deductible) or is it no muss no fuss free replacement?
8) Since straight up electric water heaters don't qualify for the tax credit, does getting a hybrid one (electric + heat pump) make sense? It's a lot more expensive, but you get a discount and supposedly it's a lot more efficient: EDIT: Detonator sucks, go to lowes.com and Search "79425" GE 50-Gallon GeoSpringTM Hybrid Water Heater ($1400)
Are the savings really that major? Because standard electric heaters are 1/3 the price, and a little less than 1/2 the price when you factor in the rebate. I can also get another $200 rebate just for the furnace through my utility company and up to $400 if I get the hybrid water heater as well ( https://www.duke-energy.com/ohio/savings/smart-saver.asp ) but it's still expensive.
9) How do I go about comparison shopping? It seems there are a hundred or so HVAC people/companies within a 50 mile radius of me and do I really need to call 20-30 of em?
10) I'll probably stay at this condo for another 2 years at least, maybe as much as 3-4, but I don't plan to be here too long. I don't know how life is going to go so it's anyone's guess, but will replacing these units with new ones increase the value of my condo? That is, will I be able to get a "refund" on some of this investment via selling the condo at a higher price? (if I decide to sell that is, might rent out).
11) Is there a way to get a close estimate of how much I would be saving per year with a new gas furnace and new electric water heater?
--------
If you managed to read this far, thanks! Hopefully this all makes sense. I'll be happy to provide more info as needed. At this point it's a little overwhelming and not as simple to do comparison shopping as say through Newegg (where really you just check # of customer reviews and overall score % to find the best items). The clock is ticking so I don't want to wait too long, but at the same time I want to make an educated purchase decision since this costs a fair chunk of $$.
Appreciate any heads up!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207653087/
Bryant 394GAD024050 ... 50,000 BTU
I'm assuming I'd need something even smaller at 90-95%+ efficiency. So can you help me out with my other questions?
Disclaimer: long, detailed read - hoping to get some quantifiable advice and would really appreciate some help!
Alright guys/gals, it's starting to get chilly, the tax credit is expiring, and my furnace is acting up ... which is motivating me to replace my water heater and furnace for new models. I've done some homework but I need some recommendations on next steps. Any HVAC people in here? Some bits of info on my current situation:
1) I bought a condo over a year ago which has a 25 year old gas furnace and gas water heater, both located in the basement and roughly 6ft from the outside. Piping is galvanized steel. Both are near end of life, efficiency is probably pretty bad, furnace is starting to act up and the cost to run a gas water heater during non-winter months is quite expensive.
2) I have (estimated) 1200sq ft of livable area and maybe 1400 or so total area if you include bathrooms and closets, over 2 floors + basement. Definitely not over 1500.
3) I'm in the Tristate area (OH/KY/IN) so I fall right on the line of the Zone 1 & 2 crossover: http://www.rheem.com/Products/tank_water_heaters/Hybrid_electric/efficiency
4) I can't figure out the model of my current furnace. The only number that was on the label was 518bxx018000maaa and it's made by Bryant, but Google doesn't return anything.
5) Over the past year I have used:
-Gas: 501 CCF (42 avg)
-Electric: 7612 kWh (634 avg)
6) My current rates are:
-Gas:
Fixed Delivery Service Charge: $ 25.33
Usage-Based Charge: $ 0.03272800 per
Gas Delivery Riders: $8.65
Gas Cost Recovery: $ 0.58539110 per
-Electric:
Distribution-Customer Chg: $ 5.50
Delivery Charges
Distribution-Energy Chg: $ 0.02212600 per
Delivery Riders: $ 5.51
Generation Charges
Generation Energy Chg $ 0.04234500 per
Rider FPP: $ 19.30
Rider AAC: $ 4.04
Rider TCR: $ 2.86
Here you can see why I want to move to an electric or hybrid water heater: I'm paying around $34/month just to have gas active and I'm only using it regularly for 3-4 months. If that leaves me with 8 months of no gas usage, that's a savings of $270/year right there. While some of this might be eaten up by a higher cost of water heating via electricity, shouldn't the extra efficiency of current heaters (25 years later) make up for this difference, thereby actually giving me a savings of $270/year or so on water heating alone?
7) I spoke with 1 guy so far on the phone who said it was probably a 115,000 BTU model, but maybe 78% or so efficient at the start, and possibly no more than 50% efficient now. It's probably not that big though. I played around with a calculator ( http://www.duke-energy.com/ohio/savings/heating-system-calculator.asp ) and came up with this:
Savings:
Annual Dollars $170-$280
Lifetime Dollars $3,300-$5,500
kWh 90-150 kWh/yr
Natural Gas (Therms) 130-220 CCF/yr
CO2 1,700-2,800 lbs/yr
Cost:
System Type Forced Air Furnace
Estimated Size 16,900-28,100 BTU
Estimated Replacement Cost $1,700-$2,800
Estimated Annual Energy Cost $400-$700
Not sure how to read into this though, and it still doesn't help me determine what model I need. I'm a little confused looking at this.
8) I have ok insulation. All windows are double pane, no areas with noticeable drafts, and a moderate amount of fiberglass in the attic. Condo has units on either side as well with a noise wall in-between, so heat probably doesn't escape much through the sides. Newer windows would help I'm sure, but don't know if it's worth the cost at this point.
9) Pics:
Furnace & water heater:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325521/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207921774/
Clearance/distance to outside & breaker box position:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325395/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325339/
Another view of the venting (if it matters) :
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325181/
The only tag on the furnace, failed attempt to identify model:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56337873@N02/5207325119/
-----------
So, here are my questions:
1) How do I figure out how efficient/inefficient my current model is? I need this to come up with a good figure for how much I'd be saving with a new furnace.
2) When upgrading furnaces, any gas furnace over 90% Thermal Efficiency/AFUE will qualify for the tax credit, but does it make sense to go for something above 90%? 93%? 95%? 97%? Is the extra cost worth it? ( http://www.ahrinet.org/Content/FederalTaxCredits_896.aspx )
3) Are the extra features worth the extra cost (single vs. dual stage firing, also single vs. multi vs. variable speed fans)?
4) Do the brands matter much? I read it's not a big deal either way, but the general ones are: American Standard, Bryant, Carrier, Lennox, Rheem, Trane, Goodman.
5) It seems to be a bit difficult to do online comparison shopping (or comparison shopping in general) for these things. So far I have found this: http://www.shop.thefurnaceoutlet.com/Gas-Furnaces-95-Efficient-Upflow_c9.htm
So I'm guessing it's somewhere in the $1000-1200 range for a 90,000BTU or so 95% multi/variable speed unit, if that's in fact what I need.
6) I hear installation costs vary wildly ... how wildly? How much did you pay for yours? How much am I looking at for extra work (the guy I spoke too said I'd need a new breaker box for the electric water heater and some new PVC piping).
7) How long of a warranty is necessary on any of these? Do these warranties have service call charges (like a deductible) or is it no muss no fuss free replacement?
8) Since straight up electric water heaters don't qualify for the tax credit, does getting a hybrid one (electric + heat pump) make sense? It's a lot more expensive, but you get a discount and supposedly it's a lot more efficient: EDIT: Detonator sucks, go to lowes.com and Search "79425" GE 50-Gallon GeoSpringTM Hybrid Water Heater ($1400)
Are the savings really that major? Because standard electric heaters are 1/3 the price, and a little less than 1/2 the price when you factor in the rebate. I can also get another $200 rebate just for the furnace through my utility company and up to $400 if I get the hybrid water heater as well ( https://www.duke-energy.com/ohio/savings/smart-saver.asp ) but it's still expensive.
9) How do I go about comparison shopping? It seems there are a hundred or so HVAC people/companies within a 50 mile radius of me and do I really need to call 20-30 of em?
10) I'll probably stay at this condo for another 2 years at least, maybe as much as 3-4, but I don't plan to be here too long. I don't know how life is going to go so it's anyone's guess, but will replacing these units with new ones increase the value of my condo? That is, will I be able to get a "refund" on some of this investment via selling the condo at a higher price? (if I decide to sell that is, might rent out).
11) Is there a way to get a close estimate of how much I would be saving per year with a new gas furnace and new electric water heater?
--------
If you managed to read this far, thanks! Hopefully this all makes sense. I'll be happy to provide more info as needed. At this point it's a little overwhelming and not as simple to do comparison shopping as say through Newegg (where really you just check # of customer reviews and overall score % to find the best items). The clock is ticking so I don't want to wait too long, but at the same time I want to make an educated purchase decision since this costs a fair chunk of $$.
Appreciate any heads up!
Last edited:
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