Full Skylake reveal result? Waiting for Zen.

[BigDaveX]

You seem to be remembering the Pentium 4 through rose tinted glasses. Northwood-C was the only time the P4 looked like a good buy, during the rest of it's run it was looking very much akin to Bulldozer.

It happened earlier than that. Northwood-A was about level with the contemporary Athlon XPs in a lot of areas, and Northwood-B really started racing ahead thanks to AMD getting tripped up by their initial batch of 130nm chips turning out to be less Thoroughbreds and more wheezing old donkeys. AMD clawed some ground back thanks to the latter Thoroughbreds and then Barton, but then Northwood-C arrived on the scene and it was game over for the K7 line.

True, you could make the argument that the Athlon XP represented a better deal than the various P4 flavours, since it was generally quite a bit cheaper, but the Northwood range as a whole was a good performer. Heck, it even managed to put up a decent fight against the early Athlon 64s, until they moved onto S939 and got higher clockspeeds.

 

[Edrick]

Zen (while I hope AMD does it right), will be competing with Skylake-E. Good luck with that.

My biggest hope is that Zen may push up the release date for Skylake-E.

 

[PliotronX]

Even if Zen doesn't resoundingly knock out Intel equivalents, the competition results in across the board price drops = everybody wins.

 

[podspi]

If Zen turns out to be good I'll buy it - I'd love to see continued competition in the PC CPU field.


Otherwise I'll stick w/ Haswell and await the inevitable asset sale...

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Zen (while I hope AMD does it right), will be competing with Skylake-E. Good luck with that.

My biggest hope is that Zen may push up the release date for Skylake-E.

I've also heard a rumor that Broadwell-E might be canceled in favor of Skylake-E and was also hoping that would move Skylake-E up. Has that been confirmed? Is Skylake-E supposed to use X99 or will the chipset be refreshed?

 

[ShintaiDK]

I've also heard a rumor that Broadwell-E might be canceled in favor of Skylake-E and was also hoping that would move Skylake-E up. Has that been confirmed? Is Skylake-E supposed to use X99 or will the chipset be refreshed?

Broadwell-E isnt cancelled. And Skylake-E isnt moved anywhere.

 

[PliotronX]

I've also heard a rumor that Broadwell-E might be canceled in favor of Skylake-E and was also hoping that would move Skylake-E up. Has that been confirmed? Is Skylake-E supposed to use X99 or will the chipset be refreshed?

Based on years past of Intel's history, I would place money on the very least requiring revised motherboards with the X99.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Skylake-E dont use x99. It will essentially use Z270 or whatever they call it.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Skylake-E dont use x99. It will essentially use Z270 or whatever they call it.

Yep, it will use the Kabylake chipset, whatever it is called

 

[TheELF]

Even if Zen doesn't resoundingly knock out Intel equivalents, the competition results in across the board price drops = everybody wins.

How do you figure that?
If zen is anywhere near competitive then amd will sell it for as much as possible and intel won't be forced to drop prices.
If zen is not competitive then only amd will be forced to drop prices just like they did for the fx-9xxx

 

[Edrick]

Broadwell-E isnt cancelled. And Skylake-E isnt moved anywhere.

I really hate the 1.5 year gap between mainstream and HEDT.

 

[crashtech]

How do you figure that?
If zen is anywhere near competitive then amd will sell it for as much as possible and intel won't be forced to drop prices.
If zen is not competitive then only amd will be forced to drop prices just like they did for the fx-9xxx

You are trying to say that direct competition won't result in downward price pressure, which is almost always not true.

 

[AtenRa]

You are trying to say that direct competition won't result in downward price pressure, which is almost always not true.

This has already started with the Core i3 vs Kaveri APUs, both have seen price reductions or newer models since 2014.

 

[Yuriman]

This has already started with the Core i3 vs Kaveri APUs, both have seen price reductions or newer models since 2014.

I agree. It's a bit more complex than prices simply coming down on all CPUs or not, but there's likely to be some benefit for consumers.

 

[ShintaiDK]

This has already started with the Core i3 vs Kaveri APUs, both have seen price reductions or newer models since 2014.

What price reductions did the i3 see? The answer is none. AMD simply tried to fool buyers with the initial Kaveri prices.

 

[moonbogg]

I really think Zen is it for AMD. If Zen flops, they can pack up and go home.
AMD is a CPU company. That's what they do. They make high performance CPU's for computers. They haven't done that in many years. That's what they have to do to survive. They need Zen to be fast as hell and they need gamers and OCers to love it, because we are the foundation of their success. We are the foundation of everyone's success. It starts with us and ends with us.
People say gamers and OCer's don't matter, but we are the heart at the center of it all. Without our demand and praise, we'd all be sitting on some slow ass single core with integrated graphics or some similar garbage. We'd be playing some advanced version of Pong if not for our passion and demand.
If AMD gives us a CPU that we love, we will freak out and everyone will want one only because we told them how awesome it is.

But, I'm thinking Skylake-E is my next platform. Of course it is. I already have Sandy performance and I won't wait 18 months to buy Sandy performance again. THEY CAN'T DO THAT! If Zen is like a sandy bridge, AMD is over. Finished.

 

[Edrick]

They need Zen to be fast as hell and they need gamers and OCers to love it, because we are the foundation of their success. We are the foundation of everyone's success. It starts with us and ends with us.
People say gamers and OCer's don't matter, but we are the heart at the center of it all.

You really think highly of yourself.

To hell with the business users, mobile users, video editors, graphical designers, developers, scientists, etc. They play no part in the world's success.

 

[Enigmoid]

Even if Zen doesn't resoundingly knock out Intel equivalents, the competition results in across the board price drops = everybody wins.

This. Its very likely Zen will be a decent jump but nothing terribly amazing.

What I do expect (and hope) is that this will force intel to move preemptively.

You can already see this on the skylake mobile line with the standard i5 (non u) moving to quad 4C/4T. I expect AVX3.2 to be another push further down the line toward higher IPC.

What I expect intel to do sometime in the future is to push its products so that Zen is ok/decent but still less attractive than Intel's equivalents. I don't expect this to happen with skylake but with skylake refresh or kabylake.

With the edram controller already on die it is a drop in for edram. Edram really isn't terribly expensive and skylake is small enough that there is plenty of space on the package for edram. With a newer edram design and possibly a smaller process, edram on skylake should give better benefits than edram on haswell/broadwell.

With Kabylake intel could easily release a 145 mm^2 6C/12T GT2 dual channel chip with edram for $400. Broadwell E could be moved up to 8C/10C with SKL-E at the same 8/10 or 8/10/12 core configurations.

To improve margins, intel could also be more aggressive with its igp (ie sell more 23 EU chips).

If intel stands still AMD could do decently. If intel doesn't stand still, Zen may not bring a ton of financial benefit to AMD.

 

[moonbogg]

You really think highly of yourself.

To hell with the business users, mobile users, video editors, graphical designers, developers, scientists, etc. They play no part in the world's success.

Damn right I do. That's because no one loves a CPU like we do.

http://www.maximumpc.com/a-brief-history-of-cpus-31-awesome-years-of-x86/#page-1

You can see the role that gamers and enthusiasts have played all along from the very start of CPU development. We drove innovation and performance and we decided which CPU was more successful and which wasn't. That formula hasn't changed and AMD is about to no longer be a company because of it.

 

[Ajay]

Wow, awesome. Another Zen speculation thread when there are no concrete facts concerning its actually performance. Oh, and a bunch of speculation about Kabylake - even though we have hardly any into from Intel on what this CPU will be yet.

Nice to see the insanity continue in CPUs and Overclocking

 

[Abwx]

Its very likely Zen will be a decent jump but nothing terribly amazing.

And 100% sure that you re a specialist of blank statements backed by no analysis, the rest of your post is just irrelevant in respect of this statement and bring no point, no need to quote it...

Anyway to help you speculate further here a number, GF standard 14nm is 88% more efficient at 2.4GHz than their 28nm HPP that is used for Kaveri, that s 47% less power, and GF stated that they will tailor it for AMD specific needs, i guess to extend the frequency range..

Some blank statement of yours perhaps as counter argument..?.

Another Zen speculation thread when there are no concrete facts concerning its actually performance.

There are concrete facts about the process it will use as AMD is constrained anyway by its caracteristics, it s the process that will dictate the possibilities.

 

[AtenRa]

What price reductions did the i3 see? The answer is none. AMD simply tried to fool buyers with the initial Kaveri prices.

Core i3 4130, 3,4GHz, release Q3 2013, MSRP $117
Core i3 4150, 3,5GHz, release Q2 2014, MSRP $117

Also,

Core i3 4170, 3,7GHz, release Q1 2015, MSRP $117

 

[cytg111]

Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Like this ?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37639694&postcount=3954

Or the full blown 2-way fluff session you have going on here

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=37638833&highlight=#post37638833

There is such a thing as sharing too much you know.

 

[Enigmoid]

Core i3 4130, 3,4GHz, release Q3 2013, MSRP $117
Core i3 4150, 3,5GHz, release Q2 2014, MSRP $117

Also,

Core i3 4170, 3,7GHz, release Q1 2015, MSRP $117

That is how intel works. Slowly increment the speeds at the same price.

And 100% sure that you re a specialist of blank statements backed by no analysis, the rest of your post is just irrelevant in respect of this statement and bring no point, no need to quote it...

Anyway to help you speculate further here a number, GF standard 14nm is 88% more efficient at 2.4GHz than their 28nm HPP that is used for Kaveri, that s 47% less power, and GF stated that they will tailor it for AMD specific needs, i guess to extend the frequency range..

My comment "decent jump but nothing amazing" is my opinion, and I have not stated it as an absolute fact. If my comment is irrelevant then any comment about Zen doing well or doing poorly is likewise irrelevant.

AMD already sells 4.5+ ghz stock chips. Where are they going to extend the frequency range to? They may reduce power but there is absolutely no reason to believe that the frequency on high performance desktop will go up.

I think Zen will be a decent jump over its predecessors. Likely a SB like jump. Do I expect Skylake IPC out of it? No.

 

[cytg111]

Anyone NOT waiting for Zen? With Vulkan/DX12 able to exploit multiple cores the first mainstream, affordable 8C/16'HT' makes sense to wait for even at SandyBridge IPC. Since while Skylake ended up great for mobile, pretty much a must-upgrade... it's only an OK release on desktop.

Considering we'll be stuck with this tock until late 2018 / early 2019 with Cannonlake's successor, what you see here is what you get for 3 to 4 years. It needed something big, like inverse-HT or that Morphcore bs to sway me into a purchase.
This relative letdown was it, the big kahuna. It ended up being "SandyLake" and not much more on the desktop.

So what to do?
For me, my next build is going to be:
-AMD Zen 8C/16HT. No brainer here.
-16nm LiquidVR-compatible GPU. LiquidVR since that's the current king for VR and Arctic Islands will be well optimized in all VR titles by that point. Thanks to the pieces already being in place today.
-Crucial Optane SSD
-Ultrawide LCD. Market will mature a bit on these by then, still fairly new.
-SteamVR headset. I prefer Valve products over Facebook.

Anything less would be uncivilized.

I have no idea bout what Zen will bring to the table but given the direction Intel has ->->->->-> mobile then my haswell rig is more than capable of waiting it out.. either 10 years till those 5-10% increments adds up to a 2x or something else comes along.. Might be Zen but I doubt it! - one can hope?