Fuel Cell camp and Plugin Hybrid camp are both wrong

[Pandaren]

I think that Fuel Cell cars and Fuel Cell Hybrids, backed by massive wind & solar farms (and maybe nuclear) are the future.

Current technologies have problems:

Plugin Hybrids like the Chevy Volt use a battery pack for local driving, and a gasoline engine to recharge the battery pack during longer range driving.

Chevy Volt E-Flex Drive

The problem is that the car is still burning gasoline for long distance driving (greater than the 40 mile capacity of the LiIon pack). For vehicles that drive much more than 40 miles per day, like delivery trucks, tractor trailers, pizza delivery cars, etc., burning fossil fuels will be all but inevitable. There will still be CO2 emissions. Charging the battery pack may require electricty from CO2 generating plants.

Fuel Cell cars produce no fossil fuel emissions, BUT producing the hydrogen needed to fuel the cells may produce emissions. Extracting hydrogen from natural gas (like Honda Home Energy Station) and from electricity generated by coal plants will produce lots of emissions. Generating hydrogen is also not very efficient. Electrolysis of water is only 50-70% efficient. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water

Purely electric cars don't charge fast enough. If I drive a Tesla Roadster until its battery is depleted, it takes at least 3.5 hours to recharge.

Tesla Motors FAQ. If I need to drive greater than the 220 mile estimated range, I will have to stop somewhere, plug the car in, and wait a couple hours. That's a PITA and not practical for long distance driving.


My Proposal:

For everyday cars: Electric plugin capability backed by a Hydrogen Fuel Cell system. My guess is that GM is right when they claim that most people can get by on a total commute of less than 40 miles per day. LiIon batteries charging overnight have a high efficiency: 99.9% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery. Daily commuters can use this to make the most of electricity from the power grid.

However, I can easily exceed that on a weekend if I drive somewhere 2-3 hours away (visiting relatives, going to the beach, stuff like that). A Hydrogen Fuel Cell system, running hydrogen made with electricity from renewable sources, ensures close to 0 emissions. Hydrogen is not a PITA to refuel (assuming that there H2 stations most everywhere). Honda FCX takes a couple mins to fill up with H2, about the same as a gasoline car.

For long distance stuff: UPS trucks, Tractor Trailers, etc. perhaps could use just a giant Fuel Cell system. They will drain any batteries quickly, so maybe its not worth having a battery system at all.

The major technological hurdles I see are making better LiIon packs and shrinking Fuel Cell systems. Putting up more windmills and the power grid infrastructure to support them will take many years.

What do you think?

 

[Uhtrinity]

The problem is the FCX only gets about 68 mpg with quoted hydrogen costs of $3 - $6 / gallon? In Hydrogen Fuel cell vehicles the full cells charge the battery which in turn drives an electric motor. Hydrogen fuel cells are also super expensive atm, within a few years they may be ready though.

As far as energy production I think we need to invest heavily in solar and wind. This in turn could make hydrogen production (conversion) cheaper and more efficient.

An article on the FCX

 

[Pliablemoose]

A relatively simple gas electric Tahoe goes for $50K

How much for a fuel cell hybrid? Well over $100K at current prices.

 

[marvdmartian]

The only problem I have with plugin cars (personally, right now) is that while they might be great for people with their own homes, how well is that concept going to work for someone like me, who lives in an apartment, with a parking space that is easily 50 yards away from the front door to my apartment (which is on the 2nd floor). Am I supposed to go out and invest in 150+ feet of heavy weight extension cord, unwind it every night, wind it back in the next morning, and hope that no one steals power from me during the night??? Cuz I can tell you that my landlord sure isn't going to spend the money to string new electric lines with meters to every parking spot in this 20+ building complex!

Plug in battery powered/assisted drive trains are a stop-gap measure, imho, simply for the reason I stated above. Bring on the Mr Fusion!!!

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
A relatively simple gas electric Tahoe goes for $50K

How much for a fuel cell hybrid? Well over $100K at current prices.

don't forget that the gas electric tahoe is based on the top of the line tahoe, which is close to 50K itself.

and that figure is before the $10,000 dealer discount.


anyway, my vote is for plug in series hybrids with advanced batteries (or something) running on biodiesel.

 

[DarkThinker]

Photovoltaics research is advancing in a faster pace than battery technology. It would take decades before we can obtain a battery cell that can recharge as fast as a capacitor can and discharge as slow as a snail moves so to speak.
Producing light thin Photo voltaic films is becoming cheaper and the films themselves are becoming more efficient, the high electric energy required for Electrolysis can be offsetted by a single investment in more Photo cells. A Photocells array always pays for itself, requires minimal maintenance and lasts for a long long time. Hydrogen can be produced on a 24/7 basis through a combination of Aero / Hydro turbines and Photo cells planted in strategic areas where a good combination of Sun, Wind and Moving water can be located and fortunately here in the states, we have a very large country which makes the possibility of finding plenty of such locations very high. And lets not forget that Hydrogen cars take about the same time as a normal gasoline car to refuel and it would be easier by many times to refuel on the go granted gas stations start equipping with Hydrogen pumps.

The reason In conclusion the Hydrogen argument is a winner is for the following main reasons:

1- The refuel time is very desirable if not perfect.
2- Refueling on the go is easy due to the very short refuel times, i.e You can't just plug your electric car into a fuel station for 5-8 hours and then keep going it's impractical.
3- Either the choice becomes Hydrogen or Electric, we will still need to redesign our power infrastructure in both the private and public sectors, however to go with electric, we would still need on top of that to figure out how to get batteries that recharge in no time just like a gasoline car refuels.
4- Converting current cars into Hydrogen cars doesn't require much rework as opposed to converting said cars into Electric.
5- We would still be working with internal combustion engines, there won't be a great need to retrain the working force as it is the case with electric engines and the mechanics that come with that.
6- Hydrogen has an even smaller density than that of Gasoline (about %10 of the density of gasoline), making a car fueled with Hydrogen even lighter than a car fueled with Gasoline, on the other hand, batteries are significantly heavy, unfriendly to the environment (both in manufacturing and disposal) and require extra energy from the car in order for it to transport the cells.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Pandaren

The problem is that the car is still burning gasoline for long distance driving (greater than the 40 mile capacity of the LiIon pack). For vehicles that drive much more than 40 miles per day, like delivery trucks, tractor trailers, pizza delivery cars, etc., burning fossil fuels will be all but inevitable. There will still be CO2 emissions.

The Volt is not meant to replace delivery trucks, tractor trailers, or far-ranging cars. It's meant for commuters. It would significantly reduce CO2 emissions in cities, although it would redirect them to power plants. Not everyone has to drive these cars to put an enormous dent in overall emissions.

I don't think anyone's proposing something which eliminates CO2 emissions in the short term. Most of these are transition solutions to fill the gap between now, with 100% fossil fuels, and the future, when we'll have enough wind/solar/hydro/geo/fission/fusion plants to make hydrogen and/or electric practical.

 

[Pandaren]

Originally posted by: jagec
The Volt is not meant to replace delivery trucks, tractor trailers, or far-ranging cars. It's meant for commuters.

My criticism of plugins is aimed at the technology in general, not at the Volt specifically. All I'm saying is that plugins don't make much sense for vehicles that travel long distances all the time.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: Pandaren

Originally posted by: jagec
The Volt is not meant to replace delivery trucks, tractor trailers, or far-ranging cars. It's meant for commuters.

My criticism of plugins is aimed at the technology in general, not at the Volt specifically. All I'm saying is that plugins don't make much sense for vehicles that travel long distances all the time.

Well then I'm going to post threads where I criticize fighter jets for not being efficient as delivery trucks.

 

[AmigaMan]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Pandaren

The problem is that the car is still burning gasoline for long distance driving (greater than the 40 mile capacity of the LiIon pack). For vehicles that drive much more than 40 miles per day, like delivery trucks, tractor trailers, pizza delivery cars, etc., burning fossil fuels will be all but inevitable. There will still be CO2 emissions.

The Volt is not meant to replace delivery trucks, tractor trailers, or far-ranging cars. It's meant for commuters. It would significantly reduce CO2 emissions in cities, although it would redirect them to power plants.

why would it redirect co2 emissions to power plants? I thought the Volt could recharge it's power cells via it's gas engine? Theoretically you could never plug it in and it would self-charge. Granted that takes gas, but IIRC it gets like 140mpg using the gas engine and recharging it's cells. It's a win-win any way you look at it.
What would be cool is portable solar-powered charging stations that you could tote around and recharge the cells anytime you want.

 

[Uhtrinity]

Originally posted by: AmigaMan

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Pandaren

The problem is that the car is still burning gasoline for long distance driving (greater than the 40 mile capacity of the LiIon pack). For vehicles that drive much more than 40 miles per day, like delivery trucks, tractor trailers, pizza delivery cars, etc., burning fossil fuels will be all but inevitable. There will still be CO2 emissions.

The Volt is not meant to replace delivery trucks, tractor trailers, or far-ranging cars. It's meant for commuters. It would significantly reduce CO2 emissions in cities, although it would redirect them to power plants.

why would it redirect co2 emissions to power plants? I thought the Volt could recharge it's power cells via it's gas engine? Theoretically you could never plug it in and it would self-charge. Granted that takes gas, but IIRC it gets like 140mpg using the gas engine and recharging it's cells. It's a win-win any way you look at it.
What would be cool is portable solar-powered charging stations that you could tote around and recharge the cells anytime you want.

I believe there is confusion in the article and the 140mpg number reflects plugin charging. Using the gas generator will most likely lower the average. I would guess pure usage of the gas generator would put mileage closer to 40 - 50 mpg.