- Mar 27, 2009
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Fudzilla: Nvidia has high hopes for Android
- Thread starter cbn
- Start date
There's more to Windows than Windows 7.
Windows CE 7 is being used with ARM based processors, as is Windows 7 with x86 processors (both Atom and CULV from Intel).
Also I'm not sure how ARM are trying to find a niche anywhere. Last I knew, Tegra was ARM based, as was the processor running the iPad and iPhone, as will be the processor on the Windows CE7 based tablet from Asus. ARM doesn't care what OS you run, they just do processor specifications for other people to make into chips which go into hardware which runs whatever.
Ignoring the business aspect, it would be beneficial for consumers since it would mean that most applications etc should work on the OS no matter what device you have, rather than having to deal with a variety of operating systems which don't want to run the same things, although I am still a fan of having full Windows apps available rather than having a cut down tablet device which can only do a subset of things I might be able to do on a proper computer.
Windows CE 7 is being used with ARM based processors, as is Windows 7 with x86 processors (both Atom and CULV from Intel).
Also I'm not sure how ARM are trying to find a niche anywhere. Last I knew, Tegra was ARM based, as was the processor running the iPad and iPhone, as will be the processor on the Windows CE7 based tablet from Asus. ARM doesn't care what OS you run, they just do processor specifications for other people to make into chips which go into hardware which runs whatever.
Ignoring the business aspect, it would be beneficial for consumers since it would mean that most applications etc should work on the OS no matter what device you have, rather than having to deal with a variety of operating systems which don't want to run the same things, although I am still a fan of having full Windows apps available rather than having a cut down tablet device which can only do a subset of things I might be able to do on a proper computer.
I didn't know what Android was all about until I owned a Motorola Droid and HTC Droid Incredible. I will never use anything besides an Android based smartphone again. Windows 7 Mobile looks very weak at the moment and will be an utter fail IMHO.
As for the tablet PCs, I still think I'd rather have something will more power and flexibility. I've never owned a tablet yet but am eyeing the upcoming Asus tablets. I believe they will come in both Win7 and Android flavors. I will have to opt with the Win7 variant.
All in all, this competition is very beneficial for us consumers and tech enthusiasts. Later this year, the first dual-core smartphones are supposedly going to be available. It is utterly mindboggling to sit back and abstractly view the exponential rise is technological performance that is occurring right before our eyes at this moment in history.
I can only imagine what things will be like in a decade from now...
As for the tablet PCs, I still think I'd rather have something will more power and flexibility. I've never owned a tablet yet but am eyeing the upcoming Asus tablets. I believe they will come in both Win7 and Android flavors. I will have to opt with the Win7 variant.
All in all, this competition is very beneficial for us consumers and tech enthusiasts. Later this year, the first dual-core smartphones are supposedly going to be available. It is utterly mindboggling to sit back and abstractly view the exponential rise is technological performance that is occurring right before our eyes at this moment in history.
I can only imagine what things will be like in a decade from now...
WinCE 7 has some usability and performance issues compared to Android. I've been more then happy with Windows on the desktop, unlike most I didn't even have any complaints about Vista, but in the mobile space right now they aren't terribly competitive and unlike previous face offs in different market segments, MS can't steamroll over the 'little guy' with superior R&D this time.
Tegra is a SoC(system on a chip) that uses ARM based CPU cores. That in itself isn't out of the ordinary at all. Tegra2 uses dual ARM9 chips with a dedicated media chip and a GPU to improve battery life and performance respectively. The level of performance from a Tegra2 based solution significantly outperforms anything currenty available with remotely decent batter life.
Android apps are mainly java based, not a big deal getting ports done. Android harware right now is all over the place, it isn't as narrowly focused as platforms like the iPhone/iPad etc.
Any tablet device running full Windows is going to have either terrible performance or battery life compared to its mobile dedicated counterparts. Windows isn't a power friendly OS. Notebook level battery life isn't good enough in this market- nor is notebook level performance(think sub second load times is the goal).
Tegra has supported Win CE all along- the first Tegra design win was MS's Zune(they have a good working relationship). The problem is Win7 CE's usability compared to Android. Right now Android is by far the fastest growing mobile platform- Win7 CE is shrinking. nV ported Android to run on Tegra- clearly they are going to try and capitalize on what they see as a potentially very strong market.
How about one built by Dell?
http://www.softsailor.com/news/2379...ing-in-late-2010-early-2011-respectively.html
The 5" Snapdragon smartphone version of this comes out this week in the UK, the Tegra2 powered tablets later this year(7") and early next year(10").
Speaking for myself, I'm a big fan of the Android platform, it can run Flash and can be supported by a variety of vendors. As of right now, the weakest link in the Android arsenal is games compared to the iPhone/iPad- nV getting into this market is very likely to solve those issues rather quickly.
It's not Windows Mobil anymore, it's now Windows Phone 7 because it's a brand new OS for MS's hand sets. On top of that to say it will be an utter failure before the final version has even demoed is simply foolish.
Also, to say you'll only use Android phones if foolish. I doubt you've used WebOS. WebOS running on a decent mobile CPU will be a monster.
Ah yes. Thank you for the clarification. I've been following it very closely indeed, and Microsoft really dropped the ball on "Windows Phone 7". Let me clarify this a bit though so you don't call me foolish anymore
I believe their all-new UI is and will be an utter failure. It simply is horrendous. It looks generic and a step backwards.This isn't just my take on it. Many people feel the same way.
I say that Android is all I'll ever need for the foreseeable future due to it doing everything I need for my business and leisure needs. What more could one ask for? Certainly not a cluttered tiled UI which makes absolutely not a hint of logical sense.
Remember, just because it is being brought about by the behemoth Microsoft does not necessarily mean that it will be a complete success. To think so would be naive. Unless Microsoft completely revamps their "Windows Phone 7" UI that they are using now, no one will want to operate it. The UI is critical.
So can we expect the nvidia/microsoft war soon? Nv appears to have the bad luck of finding a giant to fight in every market.
Microsoft makes software. nVidia makes hardware. Microsoft is going toe to toe with Google on the software side in the cell phone market. nVidia has been making hardware for MS for a while. Now nVidia is making hardware for Google too. nVidia has been actively supporting Linux with quality drivers for a while now too- this is just another example of them supporting multiple software platforms with their hardware. Only difference here is that MS is the little underdog in this fight atm(Android isn't the 800lb Gorilla here either, that would be RIM).
Suggestion: This topic get moved.
http://forums.anandtech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37
http://forums.anandtech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23
It's not about graphics, it's about a graphics company's hopes for the SoC/tablet market and associated operating systems.
http://forums.anandtech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37
http://forums.anandtech.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23
It's not about graphics, it's about a graphics company's hopes for the SoC/tablet market and associated operating systems.
Ah yes. Thank you for the clarification. I've been following it very closely indeed, and Microsoft really dropped the ball on "Windows Phone 7". Let me clarify this a bit though so you don't call me foolish anymore
This isn't just my take on it. Many people feel the same way.
I say that Android is all I'll ever need for the foreseeable future due to it doing everything I need for my business and leisure needs. What more could one ask for? Certainly not a cluttered tiled UI which makes absolutely not a hint of logical sense.
Remember, just because it is being brought about by the behemoth Microsoft does not necessarily mean that it will be a complete success. To think so would be naive. Unless Microsoft completely revamps their "Windows Phone 7" UI that they are using now, no one will want to operate it. The UI is critical.
Have you actually used the OS? Its senseless to talk about stuff like that without having actually used it. It should be similar to the Zune's OS, and that's gotten nothing but rave reviews as far as usability. I'm not sure how you think its more cluttered than Android.
As for Tegra, well there's one major issue with it, and that being its not exactly in the market, and every device that's been shown or purported to be using Tegra 2 is basically stuck waiting until nVidia can apparently actually get it actually working. The devices that have used Tegra thus far are not full featured devices, nor have they lived up to pretty much any of the the claims nVidia's made (battery life, performance). Not a good thing. That, and you have to wonder WTF happened. nVidia was very tight with Microsoft last year, until nVidia didn't have things ready so they could release the Kin phones. Then suddenly nVidia started spouting off about how great Android would be on their hardware.
So, until nVidia actually delivers anything they've promised, or well, anything at all, I don't know that people should put any stock to their claims.
I'm kind of curious where you got this information from? The Kin is using Tegra APX 2600 which was shipping in a device released by Microsoft in Q3 of '09. Clearly, they were ready. nVidia doesn't make phones, they just make the SoC.
Graphics are what makes the Tegra platform compelling IMO. If what using the same old PVR chip with ARM9 cores it wouldn't be nearly as interesting as it is with a nV GPU. Since this thread is about nV and Android, and Android's biggest weak spot atm is gaming compared to Apple- I think it is a reasonable thread for the video forum.
Have I actually used what OS? Are you speaking of Windows Phone 7? If so, it isn't even out yet bub.
Then, you say Windows Phone 7 QUOTE "should" be like Zune's OS. This is where you messed up. This shows me you haven't been reading up on Windows 7 Phone nor even seen what its UI looks like. People are actually upset for that very reason that it DOESN'T look like Zune's OS.
Then, as one poster pointed out, you were wrong about Tegra. You said it isn't even in the market yet, but it is.
Wow... The irony here is astronomical.
I suspect tegra 2 is out there and working fine but it's just a soc - someone needs to take that soc and use it in there phone/tablet/whatever. That takes time.
I have high hopes in Google's ability to build an operating system, but I can't help but wonder why it is being discussed in the Video Forum?
Have I actually used what OS? Are you speaking of Windows Phone 7? If so, it isn't even out yet bub.
Then, you say Windows Phone 7 QUOTE "should" be like Zune's OS. This is where you messed up. This shows me you haven't been reading up on Windows 7 Phone nor even seen what its UI looks like. People are actually upset for that very reason that it DOESN'T look like Zune's OS.
Then, as one poster pointed out, you were wrong about Tegra. You said it isn't even in the market yet, but it is.
Wow... The irony here is astronomical.
The point is that its a tad premature to pass judgment on an OS which is still many months away from release. "Many people" and "People" are utterly useless phrases. "Many people"/"People" dislike the iphone OS and its doing phenomenally well. Ultimately we'll judge by sales numbers and share of the market whether it was a success or failure.
I personally think the aesthetics are certainly intriguing but it remains to be seen whether Microsoft can make it a serious OS. The lack of cut/paste is a bit of a bummer though.
On topic, it seems strange Nvidia would champion Android like that. It would be a lot easier to gain marketshare I imagine by persuading Apple that Tegra 2/3 would be an excellent companion for the next iphone (not the one already known). There is the heavy fragmentation of the Android market to factor in as Nvidia would need to get tegra in a LOT of models to get a foot in the market. Then there is the problem of Android apps actually being able to use the horsepower in Tegra. Why program an app which uses Tegra when so much of the marketplace will be unable to use it? The core OS itself of course will be unable to take advantage of it as it has to cater to a wide range of performance. I'm not really seeing the advantage of tegra-android besides HD video playback.
Oh boy... Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.
Could you please enlighten us on why you think that Apple applications and the iPhone OS needs more compute power than the Android OS and its applications? Could you explain as to why you think it would be a waste of compute power? What is it that the iPhone OS has which needs the extra power that Tegra2/3 provide which the Android OS doesn't?
I'm really curious as to your reasoning for saying as much. Please explain.
It has rather huge implications for nVidia if it works out for them. If they make significant inroads into the portable market the pressure on their desktop parts is reduced. They are approaching this from several different angles, in terms of raw volume though it is *possible* that Android based phones could be their largest market within the next few years at least in terms of volume.
In the mobile market I think most people have an issue as MS has had the solution to their problems for a while already in the market in a slightly different form- put phone functionality into the ZuneHD and you have a winner. Instead they keep trying to make a mouse/keyboard interface work with a touch screen, this is a bad idea.
That would be akin to getting Intel to use nV graphics for their CPU/GPU hybrid solutions. Apple has their own SoC, they aren't going to be using anyone elses GPU or SoC. Also, the iPhone is looking to have a much smaller marketshare then what Android is going to have in the next few years. If anything, nV would be better off going after a Blackberry design win. The iPhone isn't growing nearly as fast as Android and is already dwarfed by the Blackberry.
Off the top of my head, 3D UI custom built for Tegra powered phones and then TWIMTBP. nV has demonstrated their willingness to back development of specialized features for their parts.
I think Android is far more fragmented then you think. The demands of the OS vary quite a bit from phone to phone, each of the vendors outside of Google(who exited the market now) have added their own custom touches to the phone resulting in some rather serious differences in performance demands for each of the various offerings out. They all seem to be fairly close in responsiveness, but the functionality available to each with that level of responsiveness seems to changes considerably depending on the particular model you are using. You can take one of the slower phones, like say the Eris, and make it look and behave like a Hero, but the performance tanks. This is an area where nV can leverage themselves and an area that the phone vendors are likely to take advantage of.
Like I said, none of the Tegra devices on the market are full featured devices. The Kin phones and ZuneHD are not doing what say the iPhone, or full featured Android phones are.
So, no actual Tegra 2 devices, no Android (or full-featured phones) using Tegra 1. Battery life is nowhere close to what nVidia was touting (funny, they've gone from actual battery life claims to just claiming its better than the competition, while still not able to back up that claim at all).
Everything I've seen is that companies that were wanting to use Tegra2 are stuck waiting on nVidia. How long did we hear about Tegra before it finally showed up in the ZuneHD? I'm trying to find the article, but Microsoft had wanted Kin out last year, but had to delay it because of nVidia (not sure if nVidia told them to wait for Tegra2, didn't have everything necessary for a phone ready for working with Tegra1 or what, but it seems to have turned their relationship sour almost immediately, with nVidia suddenly talking up Android, which again, still nothing but talk and prototypes with the companies saying they're on hold because they're waiting on nVidia).
Have I actually used what OS? Are you speaking of Windows Phone 7? If so, it isn't even out yet bub.
Then, you say Windows Phone 7 QUOTE "should" be like Zune's OS. This is where you messed up. This shows me you haven't been reading up on Windows 7 Phone nor even seen what its UI looks like. People are actually upset for that very reason that it DOESN'T look like Zune's OS.
Then, as one poster pointed out, you were wrong about Tegra. You said it isn't even in the market yet, but it is.
Wow... The irony here is astronomical.
The stuff I've read about WP7 has pointed out similarities with the Zune as far as usability, as in the interface (but then again, the ZuneHD while being lauded for the general interface, is lacking as far as the apps on it, such as the web browser, in not being more full featured like those on Android or iPhone). It has a grid homescreen similar to what companies were skinning onto Windows Mobile 7, so unless that's your whole point about it being so different than Zune, I don't know what you're talking about specifically. Certainly, if you read about the Kin, the apps have some improving to do, but that's not the interface, its the apps themselves (and again, has been a criticism of WP7 from the start).
Did either of you read my full post? I did say it was in market, but not on any full featured devices.
The missing features having nothing to do with Tegra- that is why I'm interested to see an Android device using their hardware.
Please link this up- seems you must have found a lot of information that I have been missing, and I've been following the market rather closely. What I see as normal for the mobile market is new chips being announced and then incredibly long lead times before we see any products that utilize them. I don't see people stating they are waiting on the latest revision of Snapdragon before releasing a new phone, in fact I can't recall ever seeing that before in the mobile space.
The Kin uses the exact same chip as the ZuneHD. Did the article state that nVidia was holding out chips from MS so they could instead give them to MS to help their market position against nVidia? Sorry, that just doesn't make any sense to me. A part is delayed because a chipset from one company can't be supplied even though that same company is providing that same chip to the same company. Doesn't compute
You stated nV hasn't delivered anything- I have devices in my house that are about nine months old using Tegra. I would say that your summation was rather inaccurate. As far as a fully featured smarthphone- nVidia makes chips, not phones.
Oh boy... Just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.
Could you please enlighten us on why you think that Apple applications and the iPhone OS needs more compute power than the Android OS and its applications? Could you explain as to why you think it would be a waste of compute power? What is it that the iPhone OS has which needs the extra power that Tegra2/3 provide which the Android OS doesn't?
I'm really curious as to your reasoning for saying as much. Please explain.
The fact is the iphone OS and iphone apps are running on highly standardized hardware with more or less a very large guaranteed market. Developers, should they code for tegra-level power, will be able to make money back very readily.
The android OS can't explicitly utilize Tegra's power as there will be lots of android phones not using Tegra. They have to cater to a wide audience. It would be as if microsoft were to program aero such that a 8800GT level card was needed as a minimum. As for android apps, it would be a larger risk to program specifically for Tegra due to the wide variety of hardware configurations as well as the fact that the android market afaik isn't pulling anywhere near the revenue as the iphone store.
You do have to have a certain level of performing graphics card to utilize Windows Aero, or Windows won't even allow you to turn it on.
As of right now, the top-end Android devices are more powerful than the iPhone 3GS. It looks like the top-end Android devices right now as of 6/5/2010 -> HTC EVO4G, Nexus One and HTC Droid Incredible with their Qualcomm 1Ghz Snapdragon processors will be still more powerful than the iPhone 4G.
The dual-core Android devices will be out later this year. I understand what you are saying, but it really is just the "opposite" as to what you are thinking. Apple developers are the ones who are limited to what they can do because they can only do so much with whatever hardware Apple puts in their devices.
It probably won't be until the iPhone 4GS or whatever they decide to call it where a dual-core solution will be implemented.
The dual-core Snapdragon processors will run between 1.2Ghz and 1.5Ghz. That is insane for a cell phone
I have to ask, what did Steve Jobs say "The" Android OS was? Is it Sense? Is it MotoBlur? Sony's custom build? Which build did Steve say is "The" Android OS? Cupcake? Froyo? Hard to state with accuracy if "The" Android OS can explicitly use Tegra's power unless we know what Steve has deemed "The" Android OS. Those of who are capabale of actually thinking differently see a very large and divergent grouping of choices many of which are tailored to fit the hardware they are running on. I understand this goes against what Steve Jobs allows his people to think, but it is the reality of the current market.
Do you know much about The Way It's Meant To Be Played(TWIMTBP)? nV has no problem offering financial backing to developers to promote their platforms- I think you'll find that the cell phone market won't be all that different.
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