FS/FT Software Keys + Steam

[SunnyD]

Preface: Rules say no sale of software KEYS without the physical media

At last check per discussion with mods, STEAM key sales were held under the same rule - no media, no sale (despite the OBVIOUS discrepancy of the fact that Steam would mean there would NEVER be physical media.

What is the current moderator stance on Steam/Downloadable software sales in FS/FT?

I ask because I am as of recently starting to see more unmoderated posts of this nature crop up in FS/FT.

 

[Tristicus]

I think there was a thread below where Evadman recently explained they were still against the rules to sell because it is against the Steam ToS.

 

[Perknose]

There is an ever changing landscape around the sale of software KEYS. More and more, even for mainstream products, this is the way software is sold. We take our duty to protect our buyers seriously, we also don't wish to be needlessly instrusive in regards to sales that the companies themselves are okay with. We've had long and involved inter-moderator discussions about this.

One Admin contacted STEAM themselves and was told by a rep they didn't mind at all.

Otoh, we didn't want to remove our formal blanket prohibition of such sales as there are many instances where it is shady at best.

So, we decided to finesse the issue. We decided to retain our formal prohibition against the sale of software without keys, as it is still in many cases a clear and present danger.

However, in the light of the formal reply one of our mods received from a STEAM rep that they have no problem with this despite it being in their TOS, we decided to take no immediate action on STEAM offers unless one of our members formally objected, in which case we would take action.

We are trying, as best we can, to balance the safety and integrity of our member software sales here with the ever changing facts on the ground as to how different companies treat such sales.

In this, we decided to rely on YOU, our members, as the first line of defense.

If you see a sale you object to, alert us, and we will take action.

Fair enough?

 

[SunnyD]

That works Perk. Steam is a new frontier in digital sales, where they're doing it mostly right. If they say it's okay, it's okay I guess. I, personally, don't object to them. It was more a case of whether or not anyone is actively moderating FS/FT in this case.

In this, we decided to rely on YOU, our members, as the first line of defense.

The only worrisome part of your statement is going to be that FS/FT is not going to become a reactive playground for trolls. They will be able to act with impunity until they get caught, rather than having to vet themselves through the rules.

Again: I'm fine with this declaration... but it raises the risk for buyers, and potentially makes more work for moderators in the long run as people will feel the actual RULES in general can be flaunted.

 

[Gillbot]

That works Perk. Steam is a new frontier in digital sales, where they're doing it mostly right. If they say it's okay, it's okay I guess. I, personally, don't object to them. It was more a case of whether or not anyone is actively moderating FS/FT in this case.



The only worrisome part of your statement is going to be that FS/FT is not going to become a reactive playground for trolls. They will be able to act with impunity until they get caught, rather than having to vet themselves through the rules.

Again: I'm fine with this declaration... but it raises the risk for buyers, and potentially makes more work for moderators in the long run as people will feel the actual RULES in general can be flaunted.

We try our best and will shut down any offending sale we see, but in light of more companies selling key only software, we are "hands tied" until it becomes an issue. Most everything now is migrating to "digital download" and even many of our supporting sites (ie: newegg) all sell software via download code.

That said, the volunteer staff here can't be forced to research whether or not any and all sales are a valid one, that will be up to the user.

Steam basically "turns a blind eye" to personal sales because it still generates revenue for them since a sale is a sale is a sale. They let it slide and don't enforce it so why should we? Now, that said, NFR and similar key only software sales (ie: MSDN, etc.) will be shut down as we find them but once again we CAN NOT be the first line of defense. The buyers have to put forth their due diligence, understand what they are buying and likewise let us know.

 

[UberNeuman]

How does it stand with group buys on games? Is this allowable?

 

[esquared]

How does it stand with group buys on games? Is this allowable?

It appears so as Steam does not seem to be against it. It is against their TOS but from what I hear, they just look the other way. I guess to enforce it would really be to discourage sales which I am sure is not in their business plan.


edit:
Before I say for sure let me confer with the mods.

There is a clause in FS/T rules that prevents groups buys.

No "Group Buys." If you do not own it, you can't sell or trade it.

 

[UberNeuman]

Bummer. However, thanks for the answer.

 

[esquared]

Bummer. However, thanks for the answer.

Not a bummer yet. Let me see if the other mods are onboard for allowing people to get in of the purchasing of gift packs. Which is what I assume you meant when you said group buy for Steam.

 

[Gillbot]

The problem with group buys is that, it opens up an easy window for trolls to start a group buy, collect $ from MANY people and disappear easily. At least with a tangible item, you can ask for pictures and such for assurance.

Perhaps we can adjust the rules to ensure those involved in group buys have all the needed contact info for the buyer such as full confirmed address, phone and the like to ensure they aren't going to readily disappear.

 

[Tristicus]

The problem with group buys is that, it opens up an easy window for trolls to start a group buy, collect $ from MANY people and disappear easily. At least with a tangible item, you can ask for pictures and such for assurance.

Perhaps we can adjust the rules to ensure those involved in group buys have all the needed contact info for the buyer such as full confirmed address, phone and the like to ensure they aren't going to readily disappear.

What about possibly a sub-forum/specific thread dedicated to group buys? Only users with such and such feedback or time here can participate or something of the like?

 

[UberNeuman]

esquared and Gillbot - thank you again and I'm sorry to not respond sooner to this thread.

I fully understand that this is Pandora's box for the mods/admins/troll hunters (for the most part it could turn into just another pain in the ass you don't need.) - and I'd agree with Gill's point that if we Members are wanting to make 'group buys' then our information should be part of the deal with those we'd seek to bring into a purchase.

Another route to consider is this:

One person (anandtech member) makes the purchase for the game - then it's up to that member to find others interested to complete the deal.

Say I buy the "unnamed game" package with its multiple keys - then I ask fellow members if they would like to buy in. I've bought the game and the keys - so then it's our (end users) problem to find those wanting that "unnamed game" as well...

Each buyer signs off after a confirmed purchase (on the forum) that they've received their key for said game and once those keys are gone - the Seller must confirm that each key is sold and then declare their sale thread dead.

Post a sticky in the forums that concern Steam the most, PC gaming/Hot Deals/FS/FT that state the policy - One person makes the buy, then is responsible for dealing with his/her fellow members in reselling those keys.

We buy it - it's up to us after that....

\Caveat emptor...

*edit - didn't want to ignore Tristicus as he has a good point as well...

 

[Gillbot]

That is the other option we are leaning towards. Basically, if you pre-purchase the pack, you are free to resell the extra copies under out current policy.
See here and here.

Since steam doesn't enforce the no selling portion, how can we? However, we can stop the group buy since there is was too much leeway there for a troll to swoop in and collect 100 payments on a 4 pack and disappear.