Frustrated Feminists

Pyrokinetic

Senior member
Dec 4, 2005
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This was a great article and a reminder why feminists are really not that relevant anymore:
http://www.latimes.com/news/po...2mar02,0,4892434.story

My thought is this: What is more of a sexist bigot? A chauvanist pig who votes against Hillary because she is a woman -or- a radical feminist who votes for Hillary because she is a woman?

The above question illustrates why the old gaurd of feminists have no moral sway and little influence over the younger "new wave" feminists who emphasize the importance of gender studies over classical feminist activism.

My advice? Vote for the person who gives you the best reasons to vote for them.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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This article is an attempt by feminists to keep themselves relevant by making the fall of Clinton's campaign a gender issue.

The fall of Hillary has nothing to do with her being a woman...it has everything to do with her being Hillary Clinton.

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Originally posted by: Pyrokinetic
This was a great article and a reminder why feminists are really not that relevant anymore:
http://www.latimes.com/news/po...2mar02,0,4892434.story

My thought is this: What is more of a sexist bigot? A chauvanist pig who votes against Hillary because she is a woman -or- a radical feminist who votes for Hillary because she is a woman?

The above question illustrates why the old gaurd of feminists have no moral sway and little influence over the younger "new wave" feminists who emphasize the importance of gender studies over classical feminist activism.

My advice? Vote for the person who gives you the best reasons to vote for them.

The language of equality in this way is frequently used by the dominant groups to excuse their dominance. For example, white people decry affirmative action as preventing everyone from having an equal chance, but neglect to notice that institutional and societal factors make the white person's chance a lot more 'equal' then the black person's. (NOTE: no arguments about affirmative action please, just an example) There would be a lot of advantages for the women in this country to have a woman president regardless of the issues that she stands for.

I sincerely doubt that bodies which are comprised of 80-90% men are fully appreciative of what the women of this country want, and so I believe you could weigh the issue on the merits and decide it is better to have a woman president then a man president and not be sexist.
 

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
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Ignoring sexism doesn't make it go away. Someone can vote for Hillary because her additional Senate experience makes her more fit to deal with the nation's problems, but her unique experience as a woman is irrelevant to her ability to understand and work to fix the problems of 51% of America? Get your head out of your ass. A "feminist" is someone who believes that neither sex is more or less worthy of equal respect and civil rights. Anyone who says otherwise is talking about their own personal beliefs which are completely separate from what feminism is.

In a perfect world, we could just judge each according to his or her abilities; unfortunately, inequality exists in our society, and we have work to do in order to try to ameliorate those inequalities.

Obama's race and Hillary's sex absolutely should not be anyone's only concern in their choice, but neither are they irrelevant considerations.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
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A "feminist" is someone who believes that neither sex is more or less worthy of equal respect and civil rights. Anyone who says otherwise is talking about their own personal beliefs which are completely separate from what feminism is.
Feminism in its purest form wants to take gender out of the equation.

American feminists have a chip on their shoulder the size of Rhode Island, and are hardly representative of true feminism...they are just another special interest with an agenda that is doing more harm than good at this point.

Hillary may be the poster child of the contemporary American feminist movement, but she is hardly representative of feminism.



 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
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feminists need to stfu and vote for whoever Oprah tells them to like good little girls.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
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Originally posted by: Pyrokinetic
My advice? Vote for the person who gives you the best reasons to vote for them.
How about voting for someone because he's black? That's one legitimate reason that many are voting for Obama, and call me a liar too.
 

CallMeJoe

Diamond Member
Jul 30, 2004
6,938
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think Hillary's biggest problem is that Obama is a better choice.
I think Hillary's biggest problem is Hillary. I oppose her candidacy because of her character and policies, not her plumbing.
 

M0RPH

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,302
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The article isn't even about feminists really, it's about women in general. I don't see anything wrong with a woman wanting to see our first female president. It would be a historic event, a big step for women and a clear gesture to thier daughters that they have the same opportunities in this world as men. Wanting this does not make a woman a feminist or a sexist.

It's sad really that more women cannot see the importance in having our first female president. Too many women are just blind followers of their men or in this case, Oprah.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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I've seen many of these feminist women on TV expressing their frustration and almost demanding Hillary be elected.

They spend the vast majrity of their "on air" time inisting that Hillary be elected because she's a mowan. This is best chance we've ever had for electing a women. It will be a long time before we get this chance again (which I don't believe btw) Etc ETc.

It's almost all just because she's a woman, occasionally they will bring "experience" somewhere.

It sounds so blantantly sexist to me. I've not heard one make a case that she's a better candidate.

I think for those who believe you should choose on the basis of who's going to be a better President, that's kind of a "turn-off".

Also strikes as making a simultanious, yet unspoken, argument for Obama along teh very same lines. Sureky this best chance a black person has had every had at being President too.

Personaly, it's hard for to feel that women are so oppressed. I'm older than here, yet throughout my adult professional life I've seen so many women in positions of authority. When working at the big Int;l CPA firms we had plenty of women partners. Half of my direct superiors have been women.

I see women:

1. State Governors, there are quite a few of them. This is why I disagree with the notion that there will be no more women pres candidates for a long time. Governors are where our pres cadidates typically come from.

2. Leader of the US House, Nancy Pelosi

3. The US senator from here is a woman (E. Dole).

4. The state senator here is a woman (Trudi Walend)

5. US Secretary of State (Albright & Rice)

6. Women as the CEO/Pres of Fortune 500 comapnys (Carli Fiorna SP?)

7. Women as Generals in the US military (General at Abu Graihb)

8. Woman serial killer (Ailleen Wournos sp?)

9. Women astronauts. So common no one cares anymore.

I don't think Hillary's problem is that she's a woman. It's that's she is a Clinton, and for who she is.

She's also gotta play the hand she was delt. She's not the "change candidate" (I find it highly questionable that she's even the "experience" candidate - see Biden & Dodd). But the electoriate now wants a change candidate. Timing is everything. Doesn't look to be her "time".

For all the talk about "change", "experience", "style" or policy etc, I think it fair to arrive at the objective conclusion Obama would make a better President based on how each have run their campaigns. Could we expect the same strategic, budgetary, organizational and constantly changing course type problems if Hillatry were to be President? I think it's a fair question and one that does not inspire confidence in her ability.

One day somebody is gonna write a great paper on how this whole "Black v Woman" thing exposes insight into the Dem party of this day & age.

Same above about the Dems primary contest method of alocating votes in a proportional way. If it were winner-take-all I suspect that there would be a clear-cut nominee already. McCain's vote total wasn't all that far ahead of Romney, yet he got all the delgates. Looked like more of a landslide than it was.

Edit: Forgot to say I find it more than a little telling that women can be feel comfortable saying that we need to vote for Hillary because she IS a woman. Yet black persons don't feel equally comfortable saying the same about Obama (vote for him because he is Black).

Fern
 

Pyrokinetic

Senior member
Dec 4, 2005
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Originally posted by: LtPage1
Ignoring sexism doesn't make it go away. Someone can vote for Hillary because her additional Senate experience makes her more fit to deal with the nation's problems, but her unique experience as a woman is irrelevant to her ability to understand and work to fix the problems of 51% of America? Get your head out of your ass. A "feminist" is someone who believes that neither sex is more or less worthy of equal respect and civil rights. Anyone who says otherwise is talking about their own personal beliefs which are completely separate from what feminism is.

In a perfect world, we could just judge each according to his or her abilities; unfortunately, inequality exists in our society, and we have work to do in order to try to ameliorate those inequalities.
Obama's race and Hillary's sex absolutely should not be anyone's only concern in their choice, but neither are they irrelevant considerations.

My point exactly, and by that definition I am quite the feminist. As for working to "ameliorate those inequalities" -- how do you do that without being sexist? The answer is the new gender studies that recognize that men (even the chauvanistic ones) are victims of their own gender upbringing. Gender (unlike sex) is a learned attribute -- having a woman in the White House will solve nothing. Having a President who understands sexism and gender and works to change society as a whole is the solution. Men MUST be part of that dialogue -- not shoved aside for a new sexism.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,976
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
This article is an attempt by feminists to keep themselves relevant by making the fall of Clinton's campaign a gender issue.

The fall of Hillary has nothing to do with her being a woman...it has everything to do with her being Hillary Clinton.


..no doubt plenty of liberals are sick of the clintons and America will be better of when they're relagated back to the trailer court. But obama has done a crack job of confusing the feminists. Looks like the National Association of Gals are all running on their knees to Obama. Some of em are even wearing bibs.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
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Originally posted by: CallMeJoe
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I think Hillary's biggest problem is that Obama is a better choice.
I think Hillary's biggest problem is Hillary. I oppose her candidacy because of her character and policies, not her plumbing.

What he said.
 

Wreckem

Diamond Member
Sep 23, 2006
9,548
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Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: Pyrokinetic
My advice? Vote for the person who gives you the best reasons to vote for them.
How about voting for someone because he's black? That's one legitimate reason that many are voting for Obama, and call me a liar too.

Prior to Bills and Hills racial tinged comments in NH, Hillary was polling equally amongst blacks. It wasnt until the Clintons alienated the black community(on purpose to paint Obama as the black candidate), did the black community come out in drovers for Obama.
 

M0RPH

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: Fern

Edit: Forgot to say I find it more than a little telling that women can be feel comfortable saying that we need to vote for Hillary because she IS a woman. Yet black persons don't feel equally comfortable saying the same about Obama (vote for him because he is Black).

Fern

Blacks don't say it, they just do it.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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Originally posted by: M0RPH
The article isn't even about feminists really, it's about women in general. I don't see anything wrong with a woman wanting to see our first female president. It would be a historic event, a big step for women and a clear gesture to thier daughters that they have the same opportunities in this world as men. Wanting this does not make a woman a feminist or a sexist.

It's sad really that more women cannot see the importance in having our first female president. Too many women are just blind followers of their men or in this case, Oprah.

Are you saying that having a woman president is more important than having the best of the available candidates? How expensive will having a lesser president be in terms of the nation's economic conditions, health care, lives lost in wars, etc.? The cost of having a less effective president could be very steep merely for having the luxury of being able to say that we had a woman president.

One other concern about having a heavy-duty feminist in office is what impact that might have on the fight for men's rights and male equality before the law. Would new policies lead to increased wrongful convictions for rape and more prosecutions of false accusations? Would it increase prosecutions of bogus domestic violence claims (while leading to fewer rightful prosecutions of men's claims of women's violence against them)? How would it affect the struggle to end paternity fraud and male enslavement?

I really don't care what color or gender the president is. I want the best leader possible for our country. This isn't about the F-in student council here!

 
Oct 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: Fern

Personaly, it's hard for to feel that women are so oppressed. I'm older than here, yet throughout my adult professional life I've seen so many women in positions of authority. When working at the big Int;l CPA firms we had plenty of women partners. Half of my direct superiors have been women.

To learn more about the truth behind this issue, I suggest reading men's movement writer (and former NOW board member) Warren Farrell's excellent books:

Why Men Are the Way They Are

and

The Myth of Male Power: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex


Don't most women in this country still support legalized male genital mutilation (circumcision) and the all-male draft? What about making men pay child support for children who have been proven not to be theirs (paternity fraud)? (I could go on, but I don't have the time right now.) I suspect that women haven't come as far as they might wish to think they have.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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Originally posted by: M0RPH
Originally posted by: Fern

Edit: Forgot to say I find it more than a little telling that women can be feel comfortable saying that we need to vote for Hillary because she IS a woman. Yet black persons don't feel equally comfortable saying the same about Obama (vote for him because he is Black).

Fern

Blacks don't say it, they just do it.

Thanks Captain Obvious. I think we've all seen the polling.

But the fact still remains that we don't see people on TV saying we've got to vote for Obama because he's Black, and that this their best chance ever to get a black elected etc.

Would they be seen as a racist?

But you can go on TV insisting we need a woman without being seen as a sexist?

Fern
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: Pyrokinetic
My advice? Vote for the person who gives you the best reasons to vote for them.
How about voting for someone because he's black? That's one legitimate reason that many are voting for Obama, and call me a liar too.

you are totally wrong!!
People are voting for Obama because Obama is NOT Hillary!!
Obama is the lesser of 3 evils......2 democtats and john McCain
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Obama is the lesser of 3 evils......2 democtats and john McCain

PLEASE stop using the gramatically nonsensical phrase "lesser of 3 evils".

Your ignorance offends me.