Frum: How the Tea Party could drive GOP to disaster

[cubby1223]

Bush tax cuts and other trickle down nonsense failed to stimulate the economy. That we know for sure.

^^^
and Obama's stimulus plan also failed to stimulate the economy.

What is your answer?

My answer is you try to create conditions for more people to want to become employers, business owners. And it is in large part taxes, regulations, liabilities, judicial system (i.e. tort reform).

But, oh no! Regulations are what make this country great, and deregulation is what evil bastards who hate America want to do! *sigh* Regulations need to come off the books, the ones that make it a mountain to climb, both in money and in knowledge, just to begin a business.

When I say "deregulation", I don't mean let the banks rape the country through derivative trading and then steal from the federal government. I mean don't create a system where small businesses continually get picked at and picked at and picked at for moneys for permits and inspections and...

 

[fskimospy]

^^^
and Obama's stimulus plan also failed to stimulate the economy.

What is your answer?

My answer is you try to create conditions for more people to want to become employers, business owners. And it is in large part taxes, regulations, liabilities, judicial system (i.e. tort reform).

But, oh no! Regulations are what make this country great, and deregulation is what evil bastards who hate America want to do! *sigh* Regulations need to come off the books, the ones that make it a mountain to climb, both in money and in knowledge, just to begin a business.

When I say "deregulation", I don't mean let the banks rape the country through derivative trading and then steal from the federal government. I mean don't create a system where small businesses continually get picked at and picked at and picked at for moneys for permits and inspections and...

I'm unaware of any nonpartisan economic analysis that says Obama's stimulus plan didn't stimulate the economy. I'm also not aware of any credible, nonpartisan analysis that states tax cuts the type of which Bush implemented provided more stimulative effect per dollar?

Can you help me with these links?

 

[thraashman]

I'm unaware of any nonpartisan economic analysis that says Obama's stimulus plan didn't stimulate the economy. I'm also not aware of any credible, nonpartisan analysis that states tax cuts the type of which Bush implemented provided more stimulative effect per dollar?

Can you help me with these links?

I'd say not likely considering you can find many non-partisan economists who find that the stimulus prevented a much more severe recession or even a depression and that had Europe done the same, then the global market would have suffered less.

 

[Matt1970]

The tea party stands for a series of propositions that don't meet the reality test: that deficits matter more than jobs, that cutting deficits and tightening credit will accelerate economic growth, that high taxes and over-regulation are the most important reasons that growth has not revived, and that America still offers the world's best opportunity for the poor to rise. Tea party plans call for a radical shift in the burden of taxation from the rich to the poor -- and promise big reductions in government spending without touching any of the benefits of current retirees.

If put into practice, the tea party platform is a formula for political and economic crisis.

Are we supposed to be shocked that a Liberal CNN commentator doesn't get it that we can't sustain $1.4 Trillion deficits a year ?

 

[fskimospy]

Are we supposed to be shocked that a Liberal CNN commentator doesn't get it that we can't sustain $1.4 Trillion deficits a year ?

LOL. Now David Frum is a liberal according to you guys? Seriously, the crazy is getting pretty overwhelming.

EDIT: To be clear, the ultra right wing people on this board have gone so far off the deep end that a member of the Wall St. Journal's editorial board, the president of his chapter of the Federalist Society, and the Bush speechwriter who created the phrase 'Axis of Evil'.... is a liberal.

 

[Engineer]

It's pretty obvious that we need to keep taking more and more from the people with money, even though it's not enough to break even, at least that way when everything finally comes down everyone will be just as poor.

Yet we are taxing them at the lowest point since WWII and a few of them even lower (capital gains). Not sure why you think they are paying more.

 

[BoberFett]

Obama stimulus and other big government nonsense failed to stimulate the economy. That we know for sure.

True.

 

[Engineer]

The fact is that they are the Chinese job creators, whether you want it to be or not, it is.

Fixed that for you because they're not creating "net" shit here.

 

[xj0hnx]

Yet we are taxing them at the lowest point since WWII and a few of them even lower (capital gains). Not sure why you think they are paying more.

Well, they are paying more, just not as high of a percentage that some would like. And yes I agree, they could pay more as a percentage, but they do pay the majority of taxes in this country.

Fixed that for you because they're not creating "net" shit here.

Oh yea, they are creating some Chinese jobs, and some European jobs, and probably some Mexican jobs, but you know, I don't see a whole lot of those countries creating jobs here, so who's employing the 92% of Americans that are working?

 

[Ausm]

^^^
and Obama's stimulus plan also failed to stimulate the economy.

What is your answer?

My answer is you try to create conditions for more people to want to become employers, business owners. And it is in large part taxes, regulations, liabilities, judicial system (i.e. tort reform).

But, oh no! Regulations are what make this country great, and deregulation is what evil bastards who hate America want to do! *sigh* Regulations need to come off the books, the ones that make it a mountain to climb, both in money and in knowledge, just to begin a business.

When I say "deregulation", I don't mean let the banks rape the country through derivative trading and then steal from the federal government. I mean don't create a system where small businesses continually get picked at and picked at and picked at for moneys for permits and inspections and...

That's bullshit it provided a short term boost but after the cash fizzled out so did the boost.

 

[Engineer]

Well, they are paying more, just not as high of a percentage that some would like. And yes I agree, they could pay more as a percentage, but they do pay the majority of taxes in this country.

So they are paying a smaller percentage of their income yet they are paying more? Oh, I see....if they are paying a larger percentage of the overall pie even though their rates have fallen (some dramatically), it's still paying more. Moving the goal posts to suit the game.

Since we're all about "fairness"...I'll say flatten federal taxes out and then abolish and replace all of the regressive taxes (sales taxes, etc) so that everyone pays the same % of income to all forms of taxes. That way, the poor and lower middle classes don't end up paying a higher percent of their income to ALL of the taxes in the US (as it is currently pretty well balanced (i.e. fair) if you look at all taxes as a percent of income earned vs % of national income per group).

Oh yea, they are creating some Chinese jobs, and some European jobs, and probably some Mexican jobs, but you know, I don't see a whole lot of those countries creating jobs here, so who's employing the 92% of Americans that are working?

Small business?

 

[BoberFett]

That's bullshit it provided a short term boost but after the cash fizzled out so did the boost.

Which means it didn't stimulate anything. You can pay a hooker to play with with your balls all you want, but at some point you've gotta be able to keep it up on your own if you're gonna get the job done. Obama's stimulus just left you limp.

 

[sourceninja]

Obama's stimulus plan allowed me to pay down a bill I had for a while. But, because I'm a smart human, I didn't spend to make up for paying down my debt. I don't see how my paying down a credit card helped the economy.

 

[Lithium381]

the problem with politics is the people

 

[Lithium381]

That's bullshit it provided a short term boost but after the cash fizzled out so did the boost.

lol, so if we just keep throwing money at it, it'll be fine!!!

 

[Matt1970]

That's bullshit it provided a short term boost but after the cash fizzled out so did the boost.

It helped, but it was a piss poor attempt. It trickled out over 2 years combined with Obama threatening to raise taxes, shove univeral health care down our throats and pass cap & trade. Doesn't instill much confidence in the consumer or the stock market.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally Posted by xj0hnx
The fact is that they are the Chinese job creators, whether you want it to be or not, it is.

Fixed that for you because they're not creating "net" shit here.

The best thing for the country would be to purge the GOP

 

[Craig234]

nm

 

[Jhhnn]

Frum is, above all else, a true patriot and a reasonable man, one of a very few of either with any prominence still flying Republican colors.

I think he's right about the astroturfed Tea Party entirely, that adherents function at a hermetically sealed self serving level of denial that simply can't be broken with anything short of complete financial collapse among the middle and working class. If they get what they want, that's what will happen, and they won't have anybody left to blame other than themselves.

 

[mattpegher]

So they are paying a smaller percentage of their income yet they are paying more? Oh, I see....if they are paying a larger percentage of the overall pie even though their rates have fallen (some dramatically), it's still paying more. Moving the goal posts to suit the game.

Since we're all about "fairness"...I'll say flatten federal taxes out and then abolish and replace all of the regressive taxes (sales taxes, etc) so that everyone pays the same % of income to all forms of taxes. That way, the poor and lower middle classes don't end up paying a higher percent of their income to ALL of the taxes in the US (as it is currently pretty well balanced (i.e. fair) if you look at all taxes as a percent of income earned vs % of national income per group).




Small business?

I like the idea of a flat % of federal income tax. I think that it should be on income over a set minimum (say everything over 20k), ie if you net 200k you pay taxes on 180k if you make 40k then you pay taxes on 20k. I do think all capital gains should be taxed. Still include standard deductions, donations, employee business expenses. I think the mortgage deduction should stay. And I think child care and health insurance premiums should be a tax credit (direct from taxes owed, not taxable income).

 

[mattpegher]

As for Frum, I think he is realizing that when a political party allows an overwhelming voice to an extreme fringe of its members the message of the party loses its sway with the average party member.
I will carry this further. When we as a society allow the political process to be dominated by the extreems of either side, the average american loses. I fear that the process required to get elected in the US is such that moderates cannot get elected.
And when any President gets elected, partisan politics imediately cause the wheels to spin, a process that cost the average american's taxes without progress.

 

[Jhhnn]

I like the idea of a flat % of federal income tax. I think that it should be on income over a set minimum (say everything over 20k), ie if you net 200k you pay taxes on 180k if you make 40k then you pay taxes on 20k. I do think all capital gains should be taxed. Still include standard deductions, donations, employee business expenses. I think the mortgage deduction should stay. And I think child care and health insurance premiums should be a tax credit (direct from taxes owed, not taxable income).

Righties apparently don't understand the most fundamental concepts of economics, particularly the marginal utility of money.

Paying the taxes we all do- payroll, income, sales, excise, property, so forth and so on, Middle and working class families make significant sacrifices in their lifestyles to support the govt. At the top of the heap, people making millions per year really don't, because they spend only a small part of their incomes to support even lavish lifestyles, invest the surplus. Their taxes would have to increase enormously before their lifestyles would be affected at all.

Making an extra million in a single year would have an enormous positive impact on the median family, but it'd just be a rounding error to the top hedge fund manager in 2010, who made $5B.

That's what the marginal utility of money is all about, and why the simpleminded notion of flat income taxes is foolish.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Yet we are taxing them at the lowest point since WWII and a few of them even lower (capital gains). Not sure why you think they are paying more.

This point always gets thrown out without the realization that tax loop holes were even larger back then they are today. Yes they paid more in taxes back then but people then could shelter way more money with greater ease during that time period. Furthermore government spending was lower and tax payers got more bang for their buck in terms of the government spending that occurred.

 

[Engineer]

This point always gets thrown out without the realization that tax loop holes were even larger back then they are today. Yes they paid more in taxes back then but people then could shelter way more money with greater ease during that time period. Furthermore government spending was lower and tax payers got more bang for their buck in terms of the government spending that occurred.

As spidey is so fond of saying, what loopholes? Give examples?


You're telling me that the guy at the top with a 15% capital gains tax rates as his marginal rate paid less then than he does now?

Show me these loopholes from those years?

 

[zsdersw]

Are we supposed to be shocked that a Liberal CNN commentator doesn't get it that we can't sustain $1.4 Trillion deficits a year ?

You're right.. we can't sustain $1.4 trillion deficits, but unless you cut from the benefits paid out to current retirees you're never going to eliminate the budget deficit... and for all their anti-government rhetoric, they're avoiding cuts to current benefits like it's the plague.

In the end, it's yet another episode of actions-don't-match-the-rhetoric from the Tea Party and their favorite candidates.

Frum's ideological credentials notwithstanding, he is absolutely correct about one thing: nominating a Tea Party favorite almost assures Obama wins, and that doesn't benefit anyone.