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From the AMD conference call:

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
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More software focused power saving (a lá Optimus) "in the pipeline", rather than their existing more hardware based switching, but no comment on what CPUs/chipsets/etc it would work with.

6 million DX11 graphics cards sold in total.

28nm for GF GPUs, no specific time for when that will happen (someone asked if it was 'still scheduled for end of this year).

Lots of talking about Fusion especially when it came to mobile computing (maybe one day something will arrive, they're looking at 2011 H1). And presumably a Tegra competitor from this to go with Bobcat in tablets and very low power devices (below netbooks).

Improving graphics ASPs, especially in mobile (I think they said).

Some things are from memory so I'm not 100% sure that I remember it exactly correctly, but ATI at least seem to be working on making themselves better in the markets NV have moved ahead in, gives an indication of DX11 sales, and what might be in the pipeline in general (although nothing about a specific next graphics product to follow the 5000 series).


40nm supply constrained in Q1, supply should improve, but demand expected to increase as well, so going forward "hand to mouth" in terms of product supply. 40nm from ATI will still be tight on supply, but supply should improve.
"Not a normal environment" in terms of graphics due to the supply issues.

Lots of evidence for increase in notebook GPU marketshare, difficult to call overall.

I think they just said 30% of product was 40nm (so 70% on 55 presumably).
First Fusion parts will be from Globalfoundries.

(overall revenues "hopefully flat to -5%" due to seasonality, for the overall business, which is possibly slightly better than usual)
 
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Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
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6million is still a hefty number Basicly 100% of the dx11 market so far.
Id like a competitive AMD/ATi. Thats the only way we will get good products from all camps.
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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6million is still a hefty number Basicly 100% of the dx11 market so far.
Ati to be competitive. Thats the only way we will get good products from all camps.
I wonder how many cards that is in the grand scheme of things. Before when they annouced that they had shipped 2 million I believe that amounted to around 10% of the market at the time. But I think that the 5770 and 5750 were pretty new, so almost all of those sales were 58x0 parts.

According to the rumor sites Nvidia has shipped anyhwere between 8,000 - 30,000 GTX4x0 cards. AMD has a pretty good head start. I doubt the GTX480/470 parts will over take AMD, but we'll have to wait and see how decent Nvidia's midrange is... those could sell like mad.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
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I wonder how many cards that is in the grand scheme of things. Before when they annouced that they had shipped 2 million I believe that amounted to around 10% of the market at the time. But I think that the 5770 and 5750 were pretty new, so almost all of those sales were 58x0 parts.

According to the rumor sites Nvidia has shipped anyhwere between 8,000 - 30,000 GTX4x0 cards. AMD has a pretty good head start. I doubt the GTX480/470 parts will over take AMD, but we'll have to wait and see how decent Nvidia's midrange is... those could sell like mad.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20090828120338_Average_Selling_Prices_on_Graphics_Cards_Continue_to_Drop_Jon_Peddie_Research.html

Unfortunately past figures are a bit meaningless because they are so varied, so for example you get Q4 figures of 21 million, 31million and 15 million, and with the changing economy in the last 9 months, it's probably going to either be at the middle or high end of that. And that's only desktop discrete.

The other side is notebook, where AMD claim they have improved marketshare, and had a lead as of Q2 2009.

And that 6 million probably is desktop + mobile parts, so who knows where it's gone. And then there's the split between 55nm and 40nm, and Q1 was only 30% 40nm, and probably lower in the previous months, so trying to work out marketshare is a bit pointless.
Better to wait for someone like JPR to get the figures.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
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6 million is an outstanding number. Putting aside all heat, size, and performance discussions the fact is ATI absolutely killed Nvidia this round because Nvidia didn't even show up until the curtain call. For Nvidia's sake they need an amazing refresh product this fall with plenty of gtx200 series and ATI 4800 series hold overs waiting to upgrade. Right now AMD/ATI is setting the pace with performance GPUs.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
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http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20090828120338_Average_Selling_Prices_on_Graphics_Cards_Continue_to_Drop_Jon_Peddie_Research.html

Unfortunately past figures are a bit meaningless because they are so varied, so for example you get Q4 figures of 21 million, 31million and 15 million, and with the changing economy in the last 9 months, it's probably going to either be at the middle or high end of that. And that's only desktop discrete.

The other side is notebook, where AMD claim they have improved marketshare, and had a lead as of Q2 2009.

And that 6 million probably is desktop + mobile parts, so who knows where it's gone. And then there's the split between 55nm and 40nm, and Q1 was only 30% 40nm, and probably lower in the previous months, so trying to work out marketshare is a bit pointless.
Better to wait for someone like JPR to get the figures.
Yikes the market has basically been cut in half in 2 years. I can see why Nvidia is focusing their efforts in HPC.
 

Sylvanas

Diamond Member
Jan 20, 2004
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Huge sales figures, pretty much ATI wins this time at DX11. The sooner we see GF take over manufacturing the better.
 

ronnn

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
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Yikes the market has basically been cut in half in 2 years. I can see why Nvidia is focusing their efforts in HPC.
Yes the market for the discreet gpu is disappearing. Likely nvidia graphics will end up an intel add in. Hell onboard notebooks amd graphics seem as good as a nice discreet card from a few years back. So for movies and what not, life is good.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
3,199
1,721
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Yeah, IGPs are actually competent enough to pump out 1080P video and Flash nowadays, along with fancy windows aero features. Hell you can even "kinda sorta" game on em now. The prevalence of consoles probably hasn't helped matters either.

The graph is interesting. The market that seems to have really been kicked in the balls was the performance market. Everything else is chugging along as it always did. It would have been nice to have Pre-2006 data to see if the dizzying sales figures were due to the console transition (Old console game releases slow to a trickle and look outdated like crap, new console is untrusted expensive and its games also look like crap).
 

DanielNenni

Banned
Mar 27, 2010
37
0
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Huge sales figures, pretty much ATI wins this time at DX11. The sooner we see GF take over manufacturing the better.
ATI uses TSMC and will continue to do so. Manufacturing GPU chips is not an easy thing, only Intel and TSMC do it in volume today.

ATI designs to a new process node pretty much each year. 40nm is TSMC, 32nm GFI, 28nm TSMC/GFI, 22nm GFI, 20nm TSMC....

I have a shot of a GFI 28nm wafer on my blog this week.
 

ZimZum

Golden Member
Aug 2, 2001
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ATI uses TSMC and will continue to do so. Manufacturing GPU chips is not an easy thing, only Intel and TSMC do it in volume today.

ATI designs to a new process node pretty much each year. 40nm is TSMC, 32nm GFI, 28nm TSMC/GFI, 22nm GFI, 20nm TSMC....

I have a shot of a GFI 28nm wafer on my blog this week.

So why switch to GF if they cant handle volume production?
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
998
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So why switch to GF if they cant handle volume production?
I imagine both AMD and Nvidia are finding out that it's nice to have choice with regards to who manufactures your GPU's. Being married to TSMC caused a months long shortage of parts for AMD.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
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ATI uses TSMC and will continue to do so. Manufacturing GPU chips is not an easy thing, only Intel and TSMC do it in volume today.

ATI designs to a new process node pretty much each year. 40nm is TSMC, 32nm GFI, 28nm TSMC/GFI, 22nm GFI, 20nm TSMC....

I have a shot of a GFI 28nm wafer on my blog this week.
And that has nothing to do with capacity?
UMC manufacture GPUs for both ATI and NV as well, but obviously not at the bleeding edge.
When only 30% of ATI production is 40nm, that still leaves 70% on 55nm or larger, which TSMC and UMC get to share.
Then there's the outsourcing AMD have done in the past on CPUs to UMC, although when they are not even currently using GF to 100%, that might not be the case at the moment.

As far as I know, UMC is smaller than TSMC, so volumes being lower wouldn't be surprising, but to say only Intel and TSMC can make GPUs is not particularly true, especially when Intel don't really make GPUs.
 

DanielNenni

Banned
Mar 27, 2010
37
0
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So why switch to GF if they cant handle volume production?
GlobalFoundries spun out of AMD and is actually the AMD manufacturing facilities and people. Part of the deal is a manufacturing relationship between AMD and GFI. It is a public document, I believe AMD gets GFI wafers at cost.

Due to the shortages at TSMC 40nm, AMD will hedge manufacturing bets and second source at TSMC for the next couple of nodes. The GFI story is an interesting one. I did a couple of blogs about it


  1. Redefining the Foundry Model: Abu Dhabi Versus Taiwan
  2. TSMC Versus Global Foundries
  3. TSMC Versus GlobalFoundries Versus IBM
GFI is the only competition to TSMC today, which makes the business more interesting. Somebody is finally in the octagon with TSMC!


 

DanielNenni

Banned
Mar 27, 2010
37
0
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I could say the same thing about manufacturing x86 processors in volume
That is true. Intel is an IDM so they have focused manufacturing which is much easier than foundry manufacturing. Customers send foundries (TSMC) GDS files with little else information due to competitive reasons. AMD/ATI and Nvidia both uses TSMC and want to keep the secret sauce alive.

Here is a picture of an Nvidia chip in GDS format:

http://wp.me/psH60-1dj

GPUs are the largest, most complex designs being manufactured today. Foundries use them as pipe cleaners for new processes. If you can yield a GPU you can yield most anything.
 
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DanielNenni

Banned
Mar 27, 2010
37
0
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And that has nothing to do with capacity?
UMC manufacture GPUs for both ATI and NV as well, but obviously not at the bleeding edge.
When only 30% of ATI production is 40nm, that still leaves 70% on 55nm or larger, which TSMC and UMC get to share.
Then there's the outsourcing AMD have done in the past on CPUs to UMC, although when they are not even currently using GF to 100%, that might not be the case at the moment.

As far as I know, UMC is smaller than TSMC, so volumes being lower wouldn't be surprising, but to say only Intel and TSMC can make GPUs is not particularly true, especially when Intel don't really make GPUs.
I work with both UMC and TSMC. UMC does not manufacture Nvidia or ATI chips. GlobalFoundries will manufacture ATI GPUs at 32nm, 28nm, and 22nm. TSMC will do ATI at 40nm, 28nm and 20nm. Nvidia is exclusive with TSMC. UMC does not have a 55nm node, only TSMC. I actually worked on the ATI 55nm project.

Here is a 2009 Foundry Ratings Chart: http://wp.me/psH60-1dj

TSMC is #1 with $9.8B, UMC is #2 with $3.4B. GFI is #3 but since they are privately held they don't have to report numbers.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
GlobalFoundries spun out of AMD and is actually the AMD manufacturing facilities and people. Part of the deal is a manufacturing relationship between AMD and GFI. It is a public document, I believe AMD gets GFI wafers at cost.

Due to the shortages at TSMC 40nm, AMD will hedge manufacturing bets and second source at TSMC for the next couple of nodes. The GFI story is an interesting one. I did a couple of blogs about it


  1. Redefining the Foundry Model: Abu Dhabi Versus Taiwan
  2. TSMC Versus Global Foundries
  3. TSMC Versus GlobalFoundries Versus IBM
GFI is the only competition to TSMC today, which makes the business more interesting. Somebody is finally in the octagon with TSMC!


GF is only competitive in performance, not volume. (and cost remains to be seen)
How can GF make money if AMD gets wafers at cost? AMD can easily use up most of GF's capacity on its own.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
6
81
GF is only competitive in performance, not volume. (and cost remains to be seen)
How can GF make money if AMD gets wafers at cost? AMD can easily use up most of GF's capacity on its own.
You'd probably have to ask GF. But at the moment AMD have to pay for any under utilisation of GF, and GF is only at 75% utilisation, so AMD alone can't use up all of GFs capacity, and they also recently purchased Chartered, so volume wise they might be better off than you might think, although it's not all going to be at the sharp end.
 

DanielNenni

Banned
Mar 27, 2010
37
0
0
GF is only competitive in performance, not volume. (and cost remains to be seen)
How can GF make money if AMD gets wafers at cost? AMD can easily use up most of GF's capacity on its own.
GlobalFoundries is owned by ATIC, ATIC's sole shareholder is the Government of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi, so profitability may not be the #1 priority. The published goal is to bring semiconductor manufacturing to the sands of the United Arab Emirates. Silicon is made of sand so this makes perfect sense.

I did a blog on this of course: The GlobalFoundries Enigma

As long as crude oil prices are above $60 per barrel...........
 

Sylvanas

Diamond Member
Jan 20, 2004
3,752
0
0
Interesting, thanks for the info daniel. It looks like AMD will have the process edge again if they are indeed hedging their bets with both GF and TSMC. Nvidia is at the mercy of TSMC and hoping that a repeat of 40nm doesn't happen again.
 

Janooo

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,067
13
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I work with both UMC and TSMC. UMC does not manufacture Nvidia or ATI chips. GlobalFoundries will manufacture ATI GPUs at 32nm, 28nm, and 22nm. TSMC will do ATI at 40nm, 28nm and 20nm. Nvidia is exclusive with TSMC. UMC does not have a 55nm node, only TSMC. I actually worked on the ATI 55nm project.

Here is a 2009 Foundry Ratings Chart: http://wp.me/psH60-1dj

TSMC is #1 with $9.8B, UMC is #2 with $3.4B. GFI is #3 but since they are privately held they don't have to report numbers.
I guess you didn't get the memo. :)
32nm was scrapped.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/other/display/20100401144643_Globalfoundries_Scraps_32nm_Bulk_Fabrication_Process.html
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
165
106
And that's also been in the OP because they said it at the conference call.
But hey, he works with these guys, he knows more than us.
32nm High-K has been scrapped. 32nm SOI (which will be used for Fusion) is still on track.
 

DanielNenni

Banned
Mar 27, 2010
37
0
0
Bulk CMOS 32nm was scrapped due to low customer demand, or so they say. TSMC announced the same thing earlier so that may have had something to do with it.

32nm SOI is in production. The AMD integrated CPU/GPU (Llano) uses 32nm SOI. It is gate-first HKMG technology, which is why GFI will use gate-first @ 28nm. TSMC and Intel use gate-last.

If you are interested in the HKMG technology:

Gate First or Gate Last Technologists Debate HKMG

SOI is Silicon on Insulator, very different than bulk CMOS. Intel uses SOI for laptop processors as well, very good for low power.

 

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