From Newsweek: France possibly supplied weapons and goods to Iraq

[RyanM]

The link says it all.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/899533.asp

It's far from conclusive evidence, but it's still fairly damning.

If this is a repost, my bad. I haven't seen it yet.

 

[kylebisme]

about as damning as all the American made whiskey and pictures of the bush twins is as suggesting that we supplied goods to Iraq. but then again i suppose most people would rather point their finger at someone else. :disgust:

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
about as damning as all the American made whiskey and pictures of the bush twins is as suggesting that we supplied goods to Iraq. but then again i suppose most people would rather point their finger at someone else. :disgust:

AND.. from the sounds of what you have written you DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE, did you?

U.S. forces discovered 51 Roland-2 missiles, made by a partnership of French and German arms manufacturers, in two military compounds at Baghdad International Airport. One of the missiles he examined was labeled 05-11 KND 2002, which he took to mean that the missile was manufactured last year. The charred remains of a more modern Roland-3 launcher was found just down the road from the arms cache. According to a mortar specialist with the same unit, radios used by many Iraqi military trucks brandished MADE IN FRANCE labels and looked brand new. RPG night sights stamped with the number 2002 and French labels also turned up. And a new Nissan pickup truck driven by a surrendering Iraqi officer was manufactured in France as well.

 

[kylebisme]

actually i did read the article. but while we are asking questions of each others understanding; i don't suppose you understand the concept of the "black market", do you?

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
actually i did read the article. but while we are asking questions of each others understanding; i don't suppose you understand the concept of the "black market", do you?

Yes, I imagine there's a huge black market value on French china and silk undergarments.

Think before you speak. Could those weapons and other military equipment have been procured on the black market? Quite possibly. But black market means the good have to be either:

A. Stolen.
B. Purchased through a middleman who can legitimately purchase the weapons.

In the case that they are stolen, then there is surely an insurance claim among the manufacturer, its shippers, or its sellers reporting the item stolen, yes?

And if they are purchased through a middleman, then it's a matter of obtaining records of all who purchased it and finding out if they still have it. "What's that, Syria? You purchased some Roland-3's 6 months ago and can't produce them to prove you still have them? Oh, what's that I hear? Are those JDams?"

It's quite simple really. The combined resources of allied intelligence would have no problem determining the origins of these illegal arms given several months and the unhindered cooperation of certain countries.

 

[guigui38]

yes there is a huge black market
ppl in france used to sell weapon to african country (the son of mitterand was involved some time ago)
when ppl came to you to buy some goods (weapon are goods) in order to protect themselves (i am ironic here) , you sell them
what would happen if u had sell some missile to south korea to aid them to protect themselves and some obscur politician there sold them to saddam to enrich himself. would you say that the us sold these weapons to iraq?
We have a tradition to sell these kind of weapon to africa so maybe it came from here

 

[kylebisme]

well MachFive, i did think before i spoke. maybe you should look in the mirror and ask yourself how your arguments about black market dealings go anywhere toward "damning" the French government. "think before you speak" is a good one to remember though, right up there on the list with "practice what you preach."

 

[SnapIT]

Last time i checked, US also provided weapons and training for Irak... but let's overlook that, shall we?

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: SnapIT
Last time i checked, US also provided weapons and training for Irak... but let's overlook that, shall we?

We provided them BEFORE UN SANCTIONS. Before Iraq was considered a hostile nation.

If these allegations turn out to be true, then these companies have violated and international agreement the country they operate out of signed and endorsed.

Period.

Did I use small enough words this time? Or do I need to break out my Trollspeak translator to communicate with you in your native tongue?

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
well MachFive, i did think before i spoke. maybe you should look in the mirror and ask yourself how your arguments about black market dealings go anywhere toward "damning" the French government. "think before you speak" is a good one to remember though, right up there on the list with "practice what you preach."

They don't. I said the black market is a possibility. My statements in that post were presupposing the items were obtained off the Black Market. The OTHER possibility is this was done knowingly in violation of UN sanctions, in which case, France is damned.

So let's break it down:

If the weapons weren't obtained as stolen goods, or purchased from an intermediary who can legitimately acquire the items from France, then France is on the hook for this.

Would agree that my statement is logical?

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: MachFive

Originally posted by: SnapIT
Last time i checked, US also provided weapons and training for Irak... but let's overlook that, shall we?

We provided them BEFORE UN SANCTIONS. Before Iraq was considered a hostile nation.

If these allegations turn out to be true, then these companies have violated and international agreement the country they operate out of signed and endorsed.

Period.

Did I use small enough words this time? Or do I need to break out my Trollspeak translator to communicate with you in your native tongue?

I had to rewrite this reply about 10 times to exclude the personal flames as they are not tolerated here...

Maybe if you actually had an argument that could hold water you would not have to resort to personal flames either?

You do not have to agree with me, that's fine, but keep the discussion civil and don't stray from the topic, the trolling in this forum consists of personal insults like the one you just provided...

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Originally posted by: MachFive

Originally posted by: SnapIT
Last time i checked, US also provided weapons and training for Irak... but let's overlook that, shall we?

We provided them BEFORE UN SANCTIONS. Before Iraq was considered a hostile nation.

If these allegations turn out to be true, then these companies have violated and international agreement the country they operate out of signed and endorsed.

Period.

Did I use small enough words this time? Or do I need to break out my Trollspeak translator to communicate with you in your native tongue?

I had to rewrite this reply about 10 times to exclude the personal flames as they are not tolerated here...

Maybe if you actually had an argument that could hold water you would not have to resort to personal flames either?

You do not have to agree with me, that's fine, but keep the discussion civil and don't stray from the topic, the trolling in this forum consists of personal insults like the one you just provided...

Prove me wrong.

If my argument fails to hold water, then tear it to shreds. I want to be proven wrong. I'd also like to engage in some intellectual debate, which I find harder to locate than Saddam's rotting corpse.

Prove me wrong. Let the debate begin.

 

[kylebisme]

MachFive, sure the possibility is logical; but then again it is a logical possibility that you are just an absolute xenophobe and would take any chance you can get to point your finger at foreigner. however, that is just speculative and i am not about to damn a person over speculation; and, i don't accept it when others do either.

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: MachFive

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Originally posted by: MachFive

Originally posted by: SnapIT
Last time i checked, US also provided weapons and training for Irak... but let's overlook that, shall we?

We provided them BEFORE UN SANCTIONS. Before Iraq was considered a hostile nation.

If these allegations turn out to be true, then these companies have violated and international agreement the country they operate out of signed and endorsed.

Period.

Did I use small enough words this time? Or do I need to break out my Trollspeak translator to communicate with you in your native tongue?

I had to rewrite this reply about 10 times to exclude the personal flames as they are not tolerated here...

Maybe if you actually had an argument that could hold water you would not have to resort to personal flames either?

You do not have to agree with me, that's fine, but keep the discussion civil and don't stray from the topic, the trolling in this forum consists of personal insults like the one you just provided...

Prove me wrong.

If my argument fails to hold water, then tear it to shreds. I want to be proven wrong. I'd also like to engage in some intellectual debate, which I find harder to locate than Saddam's rotting corpse.

Prove me wrong. Let the debate begin.

If you had a valid argument, i missed it...

 

[freegeeks]

Prove me wrong.

If my argument fails to hold water, then tear it to shreds. I want to be proven wrong. I'd also like to engage in some intellectual debate, which I find harder to locate than Saddam's rotting corpse.

Prove me wrong. Let the debate begin.

I hope that we sell a lot of high-tech weapons to Syria.
When the US decides to attack Syria, I hope they get a good spanking from the modern european anti tank missiles and anti-air missiles. It seems to me that the US needs a swift kick in the nuts every 30 years (cfr Vietnam) to loose the arrogance.

 

[kylebisme]

i rather hope we wise up without the kick to the nuts.

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: SnapIT
Last time i checked, US also provided weapons and training for Irak... but let's overlook that, shall we?

We provided them BEFORE UN SANCTIONS. Before Iraq was considered a hostile nation.

If you had a valid argument, i missed it...

There's his argument in response to yours. Have at it.

 

[Alistar7]

From the title of this thread I thought thiswould be about the Mirage parts still flowing from France until 3 weeks from the war, remember the 20 Saddam stashed in Iran in 1991? Iran kept them and France is supplying them with parts as well. France is a pro-palestine country, it is not suprising they would arm those opposed to Israel in the region with conventional and WMD. The US did funnel arms into the region, but never in the quantity of the Eu, especially France, Russia, Germany... Mirage jets, russian anti tank missiles, Kali's, soviet t-72 tanks, German GPS equipment,you think the US supplied that stuff?

The fact of the matter is they also signed the resolutons that banned the sale of certain weapons and never stopped themselves. They assumed their veto power would be enough to protect their benefactor, because they know the US is the only country that will ask the UN to go to war. We have awarded the criminals 8 billion+ in reconstruction contracts though, proving we are still and always morally superior to the EU morons that continue to arm the middle east, especially with WMD.

 

[tcsenter]

I don't see what the big 'shock' is. France has the largest economic ties with Iraq than any other country and has been supplying Iraq with weapons and other military equipment for decades.

The US supplied Iraq with civilian aircraft which was seized by Hussein's Air Force and converted for military use. Chemical and biological agents supplied by US firms were similarly slated for civilian medical and industrial use, not military use, but Hussein had other plans for those products.

Iraq convinced France to build it a nuclear power plant with expressed declaration that it would not be used to produce weapons. That was a ruse from the very beginning, Hussein wanted that reactor from day one for a weapons program, as many Iraqi defectors have testified.

An interesting thing I learned today. Guess where Israel got the nuclear material used to develop its first 10-odd nuclear weapons? I'll give you three guesses and first two don't count!

Ok, here's a couple hints:

- pompous beret wearing wine drinking lushes
- the streets of its most famous city reek like urine
- hypocrites who feign moral superiority
- gave a certain country the Statute of Liberty

 

[freegeeks]

From the title of this thread I thought thiswould be about the Mirage parts still flowing from France until 3 weeks from the war, remember the 20 Saddam stashed in Iran in 1991? Iran kept them and France is supplying them with parts as well. France is a pro-palestine country, it is not suprising they would arm those opposed to Israel in the region with conventional and WMD. The US did funnel arms into the region, but never in the quantity of the Eu, especially France, Russia, Germany... Mirage jets, russian anti tank missiles, Kali's, soviet t-72 tanks, German GPS equipment,you think the US supplied that stuff?

The fact of the matter is they also signed the resolutons that banned the sale of certain weapons and never stopped themselves. They assumed their veto power would be enough to protect their benefactor, because they know the US is the only country that will ask the UN to go to war. We have awarded the criminals 8 billion+ in reconstruction contracts though, proving we are still and always morally superior to the EU morons that continue to arm the middle east, especially with WMD.

Like I said before, I hope that Europe provides the Arab countries with all the modern conventional weapons they want to protect them against American imperialism.
We make a euro and it's a good strategy to battle unemployment in Europe in these bad economic times.
Unfortunately, the US needs another Vietnam to realize that the neo-conservative policies of the warmongers are just plain dumb.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Let's see here...

SnapIT said:

Last time i checked, US also provided weapons and training for Irak... but let's overlook that, shall we?

MachFive said:

We provided them BEFORE UN SANCTIONS. Before Iraq was considered a hostile nation.

If these allegations turn out to be true, then these companies[meaning French companies supply arms DURING the UN sanction period] have violated and international agreement the country they operate out of signed and endorsed.

SnapIT replies with:

Maybe if you actually had an argument that could hold water you would not have to resort to personal flames either?

You do not have to agree with me, that's fine, but keep the discussion civil and don't stray from the topic, the trolling in this forum consists of personal insults like the one you just provided...

Wow...typical. Avoid the issue at hand and refuse to answer questions and/or refuse to respond due to the inability to admit being in the wrong. Morph excelled at that. SnapIT is following right in his footsteps.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

From the title of this thread I thought thiswould be about the Mirage parts still flowing from France until 3 weeks from the war, remember the 20 Saddam stashed in Iran in 1991? Iran kept them and France is supplying them with parts as well. France is a pro-palestine country, it is not suprising they would arm those opposed to Israel in the region with conventional and WMD. The US did funnel arms into the region, but never in the quantity of the Eu, especially France, Russia, Germany... Mirage jets, russian anti tank missiles, Kali's, soviet t-72 tanks, German GPS equipment,you think the US supplied that stuff?

The fact of the matter is they also signed the resolutons that banned the sale of certain weapons and never stopped themselves. They assumed their veto power would be enough to protect their benefactor, because they know the US is the only country that will ask the UN to go to war. We have awarded the criminals 8 billion+ in reconstruction contracts though, proving we are still and always morally superior to the EU morons that continue to arm the middle east, especially with WMD.

Like I said before, I hope that Europe provides the Arab countries with all the modern conventional weapons they want to protect them against American imperialism.
We make a euro and it's a good strategy to battle unemployment in Europe in these bad economic times.
Unfortunately, the US needs another Vietnam to realize that the neo-conservative policies of the warmongers are just plain dumb.

Better do something quick, France just called to kiss some butt, Nk did the same, so did Russia, China is eagerly looking to continue the flow of billions of American money into their market, Iran extended an oilive branch and Syria is very open to dialogue, seems to me our policy is working rather well.

Did the misguided fools in the EU who mistook the opposition for anything other than those protecting their financial interests and covering their criminal activity collectively puke when Iraqi citizens overhwelmingly welcomed US troops and paraised and thanked President Bush? Maybe you shouldn't blindly listen to your leaders so much, it appears they are more interested in money than in anything morally or logically sound, I wouldn't want it to rub off on you.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Let's see here...

SnapIT said:

Last time i checked, US also provided weapons and training for Irak... but let's overlook that, shall we?

MachFive said:

We provided them BEFORE UN SANCTIONS. Before Iraq was considered a hostile nation.

If these allegations turn out to be true, then these companies[meaning French companies supply arms DURING the UN sanction period] have violated and international agreement the country they operate out of signed and endorsed.

SnapIT replies with:

Maybe if you actually had an argument that could hold water you would not have to resort to personal flames either?

You do not have to agree with me, that's fine, but keep the discussion civil and don't stray from the topic, the trolling in this forum consists of personal insults like the one you just provided...

Wow...typical. Avoid the issue at hand and refuse to answer questions and/or refuse to respond due to the inability to admit being in the wrong. Morph excelled at that. SnapIT is following right in his footsteps.

I made the same connection yesterday..... IMHO this one is even worse than morph, he at least on occasion would debate, and he was witty at times in his trolling. All I know about this guy for sure is he hates Bush.

 

[tcsenter]

Like I said before, I hope that Europe provides the Arab countries with all the modern conventional weapons they want to protect them against American imperialism.

Well it seems you have chosen your favored 'side'; Corrupt repressive theocratic Arab regimes sponsoring international terrorism over free, progressive, democratic western societies. Good job!

Only question left is, why don't you move there?

We make a euro and it's a good strategy to battle unemployment in Europe in these bad economic times.

lol! The Euro has in no way 'lessened' unemployment in Europe or mitigated 'these bad economic times'. If anything, its worsened it. Whose chain are you trying to yank?

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Like I said before, I hope that Europe provides the Arab countries with all the modern conventional weapons they want to protect them against American imperialism.

Well it seems you have chosen your favored 'side'; Corrupt repressive theocratic Arab regimes sponsoring international terrorism over free, progressive, democratic western societies. Good job!

Only question left is, why don't you move there?

We make a euro and it's a good strategy to battle unemployment in Europe in these bad economic times.

lol! The Euro has in no way 'lessened' unemployment in Europe or mitigated 'these bad economic times'. If anything, its worsened it. Whose chain are you trying to yank?

I agree about the Euro, America is the largest importer of French wines, they are hurting now due to the backlash over their duplicity. This effect on their economy will affect the value of the Euro as well, damaging every EU member, even those who supported our actions. Don't worry, they will be taken care of, hell , we're such good guys we tossed 8 billion+ in reconstruction contracts to the criminals who protected Saddam and sold him banned weapons.