FROM IRAQ: A MARINE?S NOTES

[keird]

I lived in Brookline as a kid, now I'm residing in Western Mass. I'm deployed in Kosovo right now but didn't really see anything to comment on in that Kosovo thread. The chicks near the university in Gjilane are Amazing! It's like Downtown Crossing at lunch! I should post pics.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
A Marine's notes? What kind of Marine has this kind of information available to them? Is this a general or a sergeant? How does your average grunt know what's contained on a laptop they capture? How does a grunt know a particular IED is Iranian? This does indeed sound like propaganda.

This may shock you, but there are other jobs in the Marines besides Rifleman.

Anyone from MI or EOD would have that information. Staff officers would know most of those tidbits after sitting through the daily briefings. Some of the lower enlisted grunts might actually be paying attention to their briefings and surroundings as well!

They ALL receive frequent briefings on the latest IED methods and materials.

Yes, I know, it may be very difficult for you (and John Kerry ) to believe that the lower enlisted are not all clueless dimwits with an IQ under 50...

but what the heck do I know?! After all, Im jest a dumm grunt...

 

[keird]

Palehorse: What country are you in right now?

edit: email me on AKO sometime. You aren't accepting PMs. My contact info is in my profile.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Turns out, that this BS from Iraq is more chain-letter politics. The "Marines Notes" are actually an excerpt from an e-mail that circulated widely in November of 2005.

I just learned this myself while reading NRO's blog.

Here is what the NRO guy who posted it said

TPMmuckraker.com criticizes an item I posted from an unnamed Marine describing the on-the-ground reality in Iraq as he sees it.

The criticism strikes me as correct on one point and incorrect on another.


Where it?s correct: It turns out the Marine?s letter is not new: It had been widely circulated last year. I didn?t know that. I received a copy from a retired U.S. ambassador who served many years in the Middle East. He, like me, is a member of the ?expert working group? of the Baker/Hamilton Commission and he shared it with all members of the group. (We?re on a list-serve where we circulate what we view as significant articles and argue over them). I assumed this letter was from a source with whom he was personally familiar. Apparently, that was not true. My apologies on that score.


Where it?s incorrect: In the letter, the Marine says that ?morale among our guys is very high,? that he believes they ?are winning decisively,? and that they are distressed over the ?what they see in the American press.?


TPMmuckraker.com says ?that sentiment seems a bit out of place, given that the president himself admitted last week the United States isn't winning the war.?


To which I?d reply: Huh? The morale of the Marines, their perspective on media coverage, and their view of whether they are making progress may rise and fall with the President?s evaluation of the situation ? or it may not.

The letter may be a year old, but there is no evidence that it is actually fake in itself.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: Steeplerot

Originally posted by: jrenz
Don't worry, this will be shot down as propaganda within a few posts.

Post garbage like this and expect to be called on it:

[Cliff May] (The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies)

The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies (FDD), founded shortly after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, is an organization purportedly devoted to supporting the war against terror and promoting democracy across the globe. It has become a prominent member of the web of neoconservative-aligned think tanks, a group that includes the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), the Hudson Institute, and Freedom House. Like many of its neoconservative brethren, the FDD links cultural issues in the United States to the broader issue of confronting enemies abroad. It has even lambasted comic books for their supposedly corrosive impact on American youth. In an April 2003 FDD white paper titled ?The Betrayal of Captain America,? Michael Medved and Michael Lackner claimed: ?Marvel Comics and other publishers are disseminating comic books that actively promote a destructive cynicism and distrust of the United States government? (Boston Globe, August 28, 2005).

More BS extremist right wing Neoconservative think tank propaganda

Sourcewatch

The Foundation for the Defense of Democracies on rightweb

It wouldn't have mattered if he posted that or not, you would have tried to discredit it. Afterall, you know more about the Iraq war than the people there fighting it, duh.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
[ ... ]
The letter may be a year old, but there is no evidence that it is actually fake in itself.

There is no evidence the letter is authentic. There is considerable evidence the letter was not written by someone actually in Iraq. Note the frequent use of third-person references, e.g., "... our guys do over there" vs. 'we do over here'; "... if captured they will be tortured" vs. 'we will be'; and the last paragraph: "they ... believe", "they are winning", "they are stunned", "they are inflicting", etc.

Also note his claim that foreign fighters are the major problem. While this is a common talking point of the Bush faithful, it has been consistently refuted by both external sources and the Pentagon, which has reported foreigners comprise a minor portion of the insurgency (less than 10% IIRC).

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The letter may be a year old, but there is no evidence that it is actually fake in itself.

I never said it was, yet the burden is on you considering you're the one posting it. Regardless, as I pointed out earlier, this is hardly "news" and clearly not very timely. In any event, even if it were authentic, it's merely one man's opinion. There are an equal number of contradicting opinions out there. So what?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Also note his claim that foreign fighters are the major problem. While this is a common talking point of the Bush faithful, it has been consistently refuted by both external sources and the Pentagon, which has reported foreigners comprise a minor portion of the insurgency (less than 10% IIRC).

What the letter states was actually true back in early 2005; which, coincidentally, is when this note was supposedly written.

And the use of 3rd-person is very common when Vets write of the war after they return home from a tour there. (duh!)

Heck, if the Commandant of the MC walked up and personally handed you a letter like this one, most of you would still dismiss it outright as the fantasy of some un-edjuh-bi-cated jarhead because it doesn't fit with your coffee-shop image of Iraq.

As you've already noted, the fighters in Iraq are primarily local insurgents these days. However, there are still foreign fighters in Iraq; many of whom are indeed training and arming the local insurgents on one side or the other in the Sunni vs. Shiite hostilities. Both Iranians and Syrians are actively participating; as well as Chechens and other extremists from various terrorist groups.

If you follow the link that Dealmonkey posted to the entire body of the original email, the author does make some very accurate assessments of the weaponry and tactics. In doing so, he sounds very much like a soldier and a Vet.

Then again, none of this really matters, does it? Most of you have already decided that fighting for democracy in Iraq is a lost cause. So since the majority of Americans now have this "Cant do" attitude, the only thing we have left is to figure out how to tuck tail and run... right? Quitting is probably the easiest thing to do in this situation, right? We gave it the 'ole college try! After all, in this day and age, giving up and quitting are just fine, right? We encourage our children to not be afraid of failure, and to embrace it as a chance to "learn something," right? We're down 10-8 in the 6th inning, why not just quit now since we know the game is pretty much over, right?

bah.... $%!#%@ civilians...

 

[DealMonkey]

You guys don't know what the f*ck you're talking about, do you?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Turns out, that this BS from Iraq is more chain-letter politics. The "Marines Notes" are actually an excerpt from an e-mail that circulated widely in November of 2005.

I just learned this myself while reading NRO's blog.

Here is what the NRO guy who posted it said

TPMmuckraker.com criticizes an item I posted from an unnamed Marine describing the on-the-ground reality in Iraq as he sees it.

The criticism strikes me as correct on one point and incorrect on another.


Where it?s correct: It turns out the Marine?s letter is not new: It had been widely circulated last year. I didn?t know that. I received a copy from a retired U.S. ambassador who served many years in the Middle East. He, like me, is a member of the ?expert working group? of the Baker/Hamilton Commission and he shared it with all members of the group. (We?re on a list-serve where we circulate what we view as significant articles and argue over them). I assumed this letter was from a source with whom he was personally familiar. Apparently, that was not true. My apologies on that score.


Where it?s incorrect: In the letter, the Marine says that ?morale among our guys is very high,? that he believes they ?are winning decisively,? and that they are distressed over the ?what they see in the American press.?


TPMmuckraker.com says ?that sentiment seems a bit out of place, given that the president himself admitted last week the United States isn't winning the war.?


To which I?d reply: Huh? The morale of the Marines, their perspective on media coverage, and their view of whether they are making progress may rise and fall with the President?s evaluation of the situation ? or it may not.

The letter may be a year old, but there is no evidence that it is actually fake in itself.

The fact that it's more than a year old is clearly relevant - we have seen record-setting months for American casualties since then, and the civil war in Iraq has significantly intensified.

 

[Aimster]

people fighting U.S troops on foreign land are terrorists

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Also note his claim that foreign fighters are the major problem. While this is a common talking point of the Bush faithful, it has been consistently refuted by both external sources and the Pentagon, which has reported foreigners comprise a minor portion of the insurgency (less than 10% IIRC).

What the letter states was actually true back in early 2005; which, coincidentally, is when this note was supposedly written.

No, wasn't true then either, though the talking point was more widely believed.

And the use of 3rd-person is very common when Vets write of the war after they return home from a tour there. (duh!)

Yes dear, but that's not what the OP claimed. This "letter" was presented as from a "soldier actually in Iraq" -- present tense.

Heck, if the Commandant of the MC walked up and personally handed you a letter like this one, most of you would still dismiss it outright as the fantasy of some un-edjuh-bi-cated jarhead because it doesn't fit with your coffee-shop image of Iraq.

No, I'd actually dismiss it as one interesting opinion, but of limited perspective. I have no doubt one can a find a full spectrum of opinions among our personnel in Iraq. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", however.

[ ... ]
If you follow the link that Dealmonkey posted to the entire body of the original email, the author does make some very accurate assessments of the weaponry and tactics. In doing so, he sounds very much like a soldier and a Vet.

Which one would expect of well-crafted propaganda. That neither proves nor disproves the authenticity of the piece. (Also see above re. opinions.)

Then again, none of this really matters, does it? Most of you have already decided that fighting for democracy in Iraq is a lost cause. So since the majority of Americans now have this "Cant do" attitude, the only thing we have left is to figure out how to tuck tail and run... right? Quitting is probably the easiest thing to do in this situation, right? We gave it the 'ole college try! After all, in this day and age, giving up and quitting are just fine, right? We encourage our children to not be afraid of failure, and to embrace it as a chance to "learn something," right? We're down 10-8 in the 6th inning, why not just quit now since we know the game is pretty much over, right?

bah.... $%!#%@ civilians...

Yawn. Which radio blowhard gave you that little rant?

I think most Americans have the attitude that our military forces should be used solely for the defense of the United States or the direct defense of our allies, not for political gain, not for some misguided imperialist agenda, and not for enriching insiders and corporate patrons. Bush's unilateral attack on and occupation of Iraq was wrong from Day 1, not only unneccesary and unjust, but actually harmful to our legitimate need to fight terrorism. It has been a historic fiasco, costing hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, hundreds of billions of dollars, and the support and respect of much of the world. As the fog of 9/11's rage and fear fade, more and more Americans have come to recognize just how duped they were.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
I think most Americans have the attitude that our military forces should be used solely for the defense of the United States or the direct defense of our allies, not for political gain, not for some misguided imperialist agenda, and not for enriching insiders and corporate patrons. Bush's unilateral attack on and occupation of Iraq was wrong from Day 1, not only unneccesary and unjust, but actually harmful to our legitimate need to fight terrorism. It has been a historic fiasco, costing hundreds of thousands of innocent lives, hundreds of billions of dollars, and the support and respect of much of the world. As the fog of 9/11's rage and fear fade, more and more Americans have come to recognize just how duped they were.

Obviously that doesn't include the AM Hate-Radio blathering pundits and clearly not Palehorsie and FlufferJohn here. The're "in it to win it" at whatever cost to the U.S., our allies and the ordinary folks of Iraq. Thankfully, they're now in the tiny little minority who have the flag wrapped around themselves so tight they're now cutting off the flow of oxygen to their "brains."

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Also note his claim that foreign fighters are the major problem. While this is a common talking point of the Bush faithful, it has been consistently refuted by both external sources and the Pentagon, which has reported foreigners comprise a minor portion of the insurgency (less than 10% IIRC).

What the letter states was actually true back in early 2005; which, coincidentally, is when this note was supposedly written.

And the use of 3rd-person is very common when Vets write of the war after they return home from a tour there. (duh!)

Heck, if the Commandant of the MC walked up and personally handed you a letter like this one, most of you would still dismiss it outright as the fantasy of some un-edjuh-bi-cated jarhead because it doesn't fit with your coffee-shop image of Iraq.

As you've already noted, the fighters in Iraq are primarily local insurgents these days. However, there are still foreign fighters in Iraq; many of whom are indeed training and arming the local insurgents on one side or the other in the Sunni vs. Shiite hostilities. Both Iranians and Syrians are actively participating; as well as Chechens and other extremists from various terrorist groups.

If you follow the link that Dealmonkey posted to the entire body of the original email, the author does make some very accurate assessments of the weaponry and tactics. In doing so, he sounds very much like a soldier and a Vet.

Then again, none of this really matters, does it? Most of you have already decided that fighting for democracy in Iraq is a lost cause. So since the majority of Americans now have this "Cant do" attitude, the only thing we have left is to figure out how to tuck tail and run... right? Quitting is probably the easiest thing to do in this situation, right? We gave it the 'ole college try! After all, in this day and age, giving up and quitting are just fine, right? We encourage our children to not be afraid of failure, and to embrace it as a chance to "learn something," right? We're down 10-8 in the 6th inning, why not just quit now since we know the game is pretty much over, right?

bah.... $%!#%@ civilians...

I think Iraqis have made it pretty clear that our idea of democracy will not last in that country. Instead of working towards a functional state they are embroiled in sectarian violence that shows no end. Yes there has been progress, but at this rate we will see Iraq as a free "democratic" country sometime in 2030, maybe longer. That is unacceptable, and the US should not have to make the sacrifices we make today in order for THEM to take thier sweet @ss time to, "Stand Up." So something has to change NOW, none of this stay the course BS that your kind loves to chant.

The problem with your type of mentality is that you are too afraid to embrace the reality of the situation. Either that or too stupid to know any better. Maybe both?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Also note his claim that foreign fighters are the major problem. While this is a common talking point of the Bush faithful, it has been consistently refuted by both external sources and the Pentagon, which has reported foreigners comprise a minor portion of the insurgency (less than 10% IIRC).

What the letter states was actually true back in early 2005; which, coincidentally, is when this note was supposedly written.

And the use of 3rd-person is very common when Vets write of the war after they return home from a tour there. (duh!)

Heck, if the Commandant of the MC walked up and personally handed you a letter like this one, most of you would still dismiss it outright as the fantasy of some un-edjuh-bi-cated jarhead because it doesn't fit with your coffee-shop image of Iraq.

As you've already noted, the fighters in Iraq are primarily local insurgents these days. However, there are still foreign fighters in Iraq; many of whom are indeed training and arming the local insurgents on one side or the other in the Sunni vs. Shiite hostilities. Both Iranians and Syrians are actively participating; as well as Chechens and other extremists from various terrorist groups.

If you follow the link that Dealmonkey posted to the entire body of the original email, the author does make some very accurate assessments of the weaponry and tactics. In doing so, he sounds very much like a soldier and a Vet.

Then again, none of this really matters, does it? Most of you have already decided that fighting for democracy in Iraq is a lost cause. So since the majority of Americans now have this "Cant do" attitude, the only thing we have left is to figure out how to tuck tail and run... right? Quitting is probably the easiest thing to do in this situation, right? We gave it the 'ole college try! After all, in this day and age, giving up and quitting are just fine, right? We encourage our children to not be afraid of failure, and to embrace it as a chance to "learn something," right? We're down 10-8 in the 6th inning, why not just quit now since we know the game is pretty much over, right?

bah.... $%!#%@ civilians...

I think Iraqis have made it pretty clear that our idea of democracy will not last in that country. Instead of working towards a functional state they are embroiled in sectarian violence that shows no end. Yes there has been progress, but at this rate we will see Iraq as a free "democratic" country sometime in 2030, maybe longer. That is unacceptable, and the US should not have to make the sacrifices we make today in order for THEM to take thier sweet @ss time to, "Stand Up." So something has to change NOW, none of this stay the course BS that your kind loves to chant.

The problem with your type of mentality is that you are too afraid to embrace the reality of the situation. Either that or too stupid to know any better. Maybe both?

I'm not of the "stay the course" clique myself. I'd rather re-institute a draft and send 500k more troops to Iraq, lock down every one of their borders, like a glove, put men on every corner in Baghdad and Sadr City, and bring the entire Iraqi infrastructure into the 21st century one pipe, cable, and brick at a time!

I also know how to "win" the war in Afghanistan because I'm THAT brilliant! lol... one word: roads! There is currently only one single paved "highway" in Afghanistan outside of Kabul or Kandahar that "rings" the country (aka Ring Road); with 85% or more of the population several hours away in every direction. I believe that 20-30k miles of paved road, branching in every direction, will solve most of the problems we still face in Afghanistan. Our single biggest problem there is the inability of the central government and NATO troops to reach the population with support or assistance more than once a year, due to weather and the complete lack of decent roads. Solve that problem, and you succeed in Afghanistan.

Oh, and allow our forces to invade and wipe out most of the extremist scumbags in NW Pakistan.

end-o-story. Just remember folks, you heard it here first!

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Also note his claim that foreign fighters are the major problem. While this is a common talking point of the Bush faithful, it has been consistently refuted by both external sources and the Pentagon, which has reported foreigners comprise a minor portion of the insurgency (less than 10% IIRC).

What the letter states was actually true back in early 2005; which, coincidentally, is when this note was supposedly written.

And the use of 3rd-person is very common when Vets write of the war after they return home from a tour there. (duh!)

Heck, if the Commandant of the MC walked up and personally handed you a letter like this one, most of you would still dismiss it outright as the fantasy of some un-edjuh-bi-cated jarhead because it doesn't fit with your coffee-shop image of Iraq.

As you've already noted, the fighters in Iraq are primarily local insurgents these days. However, there are still foreign fighters in Iraq; many of whom are indeed training and arming the local insurgents on one side or the other in the Sunni vs. Shiite hostilities. Both Iranians and Syrians are actively participating; as well as Chechens and other extremists from various terrorist groups.

If you follow the link that Dealmonkey posted to the entire body of the original email, the author does make some very accurate assessments of the weaponry and tactics. In doing so, he sounds very much like a soldier and a Vet.

Then again, none of this really matters, does it? Most of you have already decided that fighting for democracy in Iraq is a lost cause. So since the majority of Americans now have this "Cant do" attitude, the only thing we have left is to figure out how to tuck tail and run... right? Quitting is probably the easiest thing to do in this situation, right? We gave it the 'ole college try! After all, in this day and age, giving up and quitting are just fine, right? We encourage our children to not be afraid of failure, and to embrace it as a chance to "learn something," right? We're down 10-8 in the 6th inning, why not just quit now since we know the game is pretty much over, right?

bah.... $%!#%@ civilians...

I think Iraqis have made it pretty clear that our idea of democracy will not last in that country. Instead of working towards a functional state they are embroiled in sectarian violence that shows no end. Yes there has been progress, but at this rate we will see Iraq as a free "democratic" country sometime in 2030, maybe longer. That is unacceptable, and the US should not have to make the sacrifices we make today in order for THEM to take thier sweet @ss time to, "Stand Up." So something has to change NOW, none of this stay the course BS that your kind loves to chant.

The problem with your type of mentality is that you are too afraid to embrace the reality of the situation. Either that or too stupid to know any better. Maybe both?

I'm not of the "stay the course" clique myself. I'd rather re-institute a draft and send 500k more troops to Iraq, lock down every one of their borders, like a glove, put men on every corner in Baghdad and Sadr City, and bring the entire Iraqi infrastructure into the 21st century one pipe, cable, and brick at a time!

I also know how to "win" the war in Afghanistan because I'm THAT brilliant! lol... one word: roads! There is currently only one single paved "highway" in Afghanistan outside of Kabul or Kandahar that "rings" the country (aka Ring Road); with 85% or more of the population several hours away in every direction. I believe that 20-30k miles of paved road, branching in every direction, will solve most of the problems we still face in Afghanistan. Our single biggest problem there is the inability of the central government and NATO troops to reach the population with support or assistance more than once a year, due to weather and the complete lack of decent roads. Solve that problem, and you succeed in Afghanistan.

Oh, and allow our forces to invade and wipe out most of the extremist scumbags in NW Pakistan.

end-o-story. Just remember folks, you heard it here first!

It is funny, your re-instituting the draft idea would be great in that this country would once again learn the consequences of allowing their politicians to run rampant for their own political gain... the those who voted for Bush would have to explain to their children why they were drafted.