• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad

NJDevil

Senior member
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?pagewanted=1&hp

A very interesting read, I can't paste the entire article here, but the site requires a subscription, so here is the first page (it gets much more in depth and interesting later though, and anyone who is interested in this topic should read this)

After weeks of taking fire over veterans' accusations that he had lied about his Vietnam service record to win medals and build a political career, Senator John Kerry shot back yesterday, calling those statements categorically false and branding the people behind them tools of the Bush campaign.

His decision to take on the group directly was a measure of how the group that calls itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has catapulted itself to the forefront of the presidential campaign. It has advanced its cause in a book, in a television advertisement and on cable news and talk radio shows, all in an attempt to discredit Mr. Kerry's war record, a pillar of his campaign.

Advertisement


How the group came into existence is a story of how veterans with longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early 1970's allied themselves with Texas Republicans.

Mr. Kerry called them "a front for the Bush campaign" - a charge the campaign denied.

A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.

Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements.

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man."

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

The Admiral Calls

It all began last winter, as Mr. Kerry was wrapping up the Democratic nomination. Mr. Lonsdale received a call at his Massachusetts home from his old commander in Vietnam, Mr. Hoffmann, asking if he had seen the new biography of the man who would be president.

Mr. Hoffmann had commanded the Swift boats during the war from a base in Cam Ranh Bay and advocated a search-and-destroy campaign against the Vietcong - the kind of tactic Mr. Kerry criticized when he was a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War in 1971. Shortly after leaving the Navy in 1978, he was issued a letter of censure for exercising undue influence on cases in the military justice system.

Oh yes, and I added a poll.
I know that this is going to be hard, but can we try to be civil about this? No namecalling please, just talk about the article and what you think about it. Please don't accuse people of being liberals/conservatives/communists/neocons/facists/etc. I hope we can come here and reason together, and yes, it's the internet, but try to use it well!

Thanks, I really appreciate your responses. Oh yea, and if anyone is trolling/being unreasonable, just don't reply to them, totally ignore them and stay on topic, let's see if we can have a kickass thread.

(Btw, I wish we could talk about the issues instead of this swift boat veteran thing, but I felt this article was important)
 
How dare you use the NY Times as a source, they have only been around since 1851!! They are very liberally biased like the rest of the print, news and talk radio circuit. Only Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, The Drudge Report, Cheney and Bush have the right to talk about Kerry's war record since they all served in a warzone and know what war is all about. 🙂
 
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
How dare you use the NY Times as a source, they have only been around since 1851!! They are very liberally biased like the rest of the print, news and talk radio circuit. Only Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, The Drudge Report, Cheney and Bush have the right to talk about Kerry's war record since they all served in a warzone and know what war is all about. 🙂
/\
| :laugh:

I hope other people realise that you are being sarcastic and don't take this post seriously enough to respond saying, "YOU STUPID HIPPIE LIBERAL FRENCH IDIOT!" anyone who does that needs to be shot ... and please don't quote me and say, "you stupid hippie liberal french idiot" to be funny, stay on topic
 
...absolutely hypocritical (and typical) of the left-wing fringe; Paul O'Neil, Clarke, Wilson, and all these other disgruntled people release books that bash Bush, and these people are heros for 'telling the truth'. Moreover, when anyone questioned their motives, the fringe spin was 'character assassination'. Without the release of Kerry's FULL military records, to include his original medical records (the dogs were relentless until Bush released his dental records), how can these partisans claim that these veterans are lying?
 
From John Galt-

"how can these partisans claim that these veterans are lying?"

Do you actually read, or merely write? Their own statements are contradictory, as shown above and elsewhere, and they admit holding a grudge for Kerry's anti-war activities after his service... Which is really what it's all about. A small % of Vietnam vets hold to the idea that "We could have won!" except for the commie peace agitators stabbing us in the back... Which is probably true, if we'd been willing to engage in the kind of mass murder that would have made Saddam Hussein blanche...

Want to know what's going on? Just follow the money, honey, and it all becomes clear...
 
If Kerry were as bright as Bush and avoided the possibility, admittedly only for four months before he wised up and shot himself in the foot, so to speak, of getting his head blown off in Nam, he wouldn't have this problem today. Nobody really cares if you went AWOL or avoided service by using the political influence of your father, but people just hate folk who fake heroism. There is just something disgusting about a person who faces death on a battlefield just for the opportunity to win a medal or three or four or five.
 
My opinion:

I think that the SBVFT are a bunch of guys that have a hard on for Kerry because of the statements he made to the senate commitee after the war. I think they were stupid not to dig up everything they could find that could be damaging to themselves BEFORE coming to the media. There are a bunch of lawyers in that group, so you would think they know better. I think it was very easy for them to find backing from a bunch of Bush supporting/Kerry hating Republicans that had the money to do it. I think it will all blow over quickly now that there have been discrepencies in some statement and other have retracted or changed their statements.

OTOH, I think it was really smart of Kerry to combat this issue by challenging Bush on it, instead of challenging SBVFT themselves. That was pure political genius. Not being sarcastic, I mean it. Instead of going to the SBVFT directly and debating them face to face, Kerry laid it on Bush, because the same ppl who gave money to SBVFT also gave money to Bush. Bush has said that he never questioned Kerry's record, but Kerry knows that Bush cannot ever match Kerry's four months and collection of medals, so it was very smart of him to challenge Bush intead of SBVFT directly.

🙂
 
Kerry has changed his story to much and the veterans for truth has not changed one time, When asked if they would back down because it was hurting Bush they said they didn't care if it helped or hurt Bush they had to get the truth out about Kerry, When they asked Kerry's commander about the silver star for pulling Raftman or what ever his name is out of the water and being shot at from both sides of the river his commander said he did not put Kerry in for a silver star and they were not getting shot at like Kerry said when he put his self and some of the other men in for medals, So it looks to me like every medal Kerry got he gave it to him self and every medal that was put in for him was turned down, All I had to do was see the 8mm movie John, Kerry, Wayne made and that said it all to me
 
A very high percentage of our population is just a little bit dumber than a grapefruit or an orange.

There was a survey recently about why some didn't like Kerry as a candidate,
and way too many of them cited the picture of him at the podium with Jane Fonda.
That was a faked picture that was put out with only one purpose - smear Kerry.
The Village Idiots of America bought that picture - lock, stock, and barrel,
they became so incensed with the 'Image' that they assumed it to be true.

Fox Network now admits that they are a GOP house organ, a mouthpiece
for the Bush Administration, and their sole purpose is to provide that point
of view to those who want their perceptions reinforced, reguardless of facts.

Insecure people need to have their feeling and beliefs reinforced and stroked
to make them feel as if they are 'In with the In Crowd' peer pressure to be RIGHT.

What needs to be done, is to take those who use 'Freedom of Speech' as a ploy to task,
when that alledged 'Freedom' is used to falsly accuse and attack others in a libelous and
slanderous format for the express purpose of political gain by mis-representation of fact.
If Political Libel and Slander were made a felony, some would think twice before becoming
party to a cause that may cause damage to National Standings and a persons character.

Prosecute these people, reveal their financial ties and motives, and prosecute them as well.

This 'One-Upmanship' and 'Political Revenge Attacks' need to stop now - for both parties.
 
Kerry worked with McCain in the Senate on MIA/POW issues while Bush was drunk in Texas, but of course Kerry is a traitor... Maybe Ann Coulter will write a book on treason and slander about the people who attack a guy who volenteered for combat duty and worked to end the war and get the POWs back. I won't hold my breath.
 
Fox Network now admits that they are a GOP house organ, a mouthpiece
for the Bush Administration, and their sole purpose is to provide that point
of view to those who want their perceptions reinforced, reguardless of facts.

source, please? I am interested in reading that.

🙂
 
Originally posted by: DoubleL
Kerry has changed his story to much and the veterans for truth has not changed one time, When asked if they would back down because it was hurting Bush they said they didn't care if it helped or hurt Bush they had to get the truth out about Kerry, When they asked Kerry's commander about the silver star for pulling Raftman or what ever his name is out of the water and being shot at from both sides of the river his commander said he did not put Kerry in for a silver star and they were not getting shot at like Kerry said when he put his self and some of the other men in for medals, So it looks to me like every medal Kerry got he gave it to him self and every medal that was put in for him was turned down, All I had to do was see the 8mm movie John, Kerry, Wayne made and that said it all to me

Have you ever heard of a period?

Do you understand that each of the most vocal "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" have previously made verbal or written statements that are directly contradictory to their statments now?
 
Originally posted by: Todd33
Kerry worked with McCain in the Senate on MIA/POW issues while Bush was drunk in Texas, but of course Kerry is a traitor... Maybe Ann Coulter will write a book on treason and slander about the people who attack a guy who volenteered for combat duty and worked to end the war and get the POWs back. I won't hold my breath.
Kerry could have avoided all this, also, by becoming a Republican. That would have made him an American Hero.
 
Originally posted by: KarenMarie
Fox Network now admits that they are a GOP house organ, a mouthpiece
for the Bush Administration, and their sole purpose is to provide that point
of view to those who want their perceptions reinforced, reguardless of facts.

source, please? I am interested in reading that.

🙂

As much as we all know that Fox leans so far right I have to tilt my head to watch it, I don't think they'd be silly enough to actually admit that they're another set of cheap shills for the BA. But man, if you got a source for that, I'd die to read it. 🙂
 
Bad link CaptnKirk.

I'd also be interested in seeing that Fox News admission in black and white, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Some interesting tidbits from the NYT article:
When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's tenure, Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once, in 2002, when Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week Ms. Spaeth acknowledged [OOPS!] that she had spent an hour in the Old Executive Office Building, part of the White House complex, in the spring of 2003, giving Mr. Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen Friedman, public speaking advice. Asked if it was possible that she had worked with other administration officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my memory.''
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he initially thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily gave a statement about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart. The investigator said he would send it to him by e-mail for his signature. Mr. Runyon said the edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it look like just another night in the Mekong Delta.

"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest night of my life."
Sounds like they cooked the books to me!
The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a retired rear admiral who says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December 1968. He contends that Mr. Kerry wounded himself while firing a grenade.

But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr. Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he had not recalled Mr. Schachte until he had a conversation with another veteran earlier this year and received a subsequent phone call from Mr. Schachte himself.
Lessee, that's one, two . . . three!

The above snippets are just sidelights in the whole SBVFT cavalcade of lies and distortions.

What a steaming crock of rancide coccoa!
 
Once the damage is done, there is little you can do... The Republicans are masters at inventing issues, even if they are grounded in lies, and letting their right wing puppets keep the lie going. . Hopefully, people are capable of informing themselves about the truth and making balanced decisions, but sadly, I don't think that is the case.
 
Originally posted by: Bumrush99
Once the damage is done, there is little you can do... The Republicans are masters at inventing issues, even if they are grounded in lies, and letting their right wing puppets keep the lie going. . Hopefully, people are capable of informing themselves about the truth and making balanced decisions, but sadly, I don't think that is the case.

I've never know it to be the case at all.
 
Am I alone in thinking that Karl Rove is quite possibly the most evil man on the planet? But more importantly I fail to see why this is a such a huge issue, can someone please enlighten me?
 
Back
Top