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French Pres Hollande: no talks, no free trade deal until U.S stops spying on Europe

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,388
1,013
126
As well they should. Normally I think the French are obnoxious assholes but in this case they're 100% correct. And since economic threats seem to be the only effective counter other nations have against this behavior, Hollande selected exactly the correct tool to use.

As a patriotic citizen who served in the U.S. military for 10+ years, I'd be the first to tell the leaders of other countries to put the pressure on Obama to stop this bullshit. No more spying on American citizens and our allies' governments.


http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/world/europeans-demand-answers-over-us-bugging/story-e6frfkui-1226672293114
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,649
21,814
136
As well they should. Normally I think the French are obnoxious assholes but in this case they're 100% correct. And since economic threats seem to be the only effective counter other nations have against this behavior, Hollande selected exactly the correct tool to use.

As a patriotic citizen who served in the U.S. military for 10+ years, I'd be the first to tell the leaders of other countries to put the pressure on Obama to stop this bullshit. No more spying on American citizens and our allies' governments.


http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/world/europeans-demand-answers-over-us-bugging/story-e6frfkui-1226672293114
What should the US withhold until the French stop spying on us?

Allies spy on each other constantly. This will never, ever change. The French are spying on the US, the UK, Germany, and dozens of other countries today if not more. Everyone who knows anything about diplomacy knows this.
 

nextJin

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2009
1,848
0
0
This has always happened..... the only thing our allies are pissed about is we do it better than anyone (KGB?). They want even footing.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
81
Well I dont agree with the not spying on them part - they are not covered by our fourth amendment like we are supposed to be. fourth is a limitation placed upon the US government of the United States by the people who empower it, US Citizens.

It might not be right or polite to spy on them and they are perfectly justified in whatever sanctions they impose but I'd expect we'd do it actually.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
Allies spy on each other constantly. This will never, ever change.
Do you spy on your friends? Have a camera setup in your neighbors bedroom? Maybe have a wiretap on your parents?

The United States is acting like a bully, and it needs to stop.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,649
21,814
136
Do you spy on your friends? Have a camera setup in your neighbors bedroom? Maybe have a wiretap on your parents?

The United States is acting like a bully, and it needs to stop.
Do I have my own army? Do I regulate interstate commerce? etc, etc.

States are not people, and alliances between states are not like friendships between people or the relationships between parents and their children. That should all go without saying.

Even if the US stops spying on France tomorrow, France will not stop spying on the US. Do you think that is preferable?
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
This has always happened..... the only thing our allies are pissed about is we do it better than anyone (KGB?). They want even footing.


It's not necessarily the spying, as was mentioned nations usually spy on other nations, friend or not. It's the degree of spying. There is a difference between reading through the trash being thrown out and controlling the internet and reading every single bit of data going through it.

This is where the USA is going to be most hurt by this NSA scandal too. The world is going to strip away the USA's control of the Internet and put it under the control of a UN group. We've shown we're willing to go full on and abuse it.

Will we be comfortable with a UN committee running the Internet? It'll be just as big a joke as Syria on a human rights commission but that's the future we're headed to thanks to this rampant out of control spying.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
Even if the US stops spying on France tomorrow, France will not stop spying on the US. Do you think that is preferable?
I think it is preferable to let other nations live in peace without the worry they are being spied on.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
81
Cant wait to see what else snowden releases. Now you guys know why they went ape trying to get him back almost to point of bratty hysteria and trying every card in the book.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,560
1
0
I think it is preferable to let other nations live in peace without the worry they are being spied on.
I think it is preferable for you to have more than a simplistic and naive view on almost all matters discussed here in P&N.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,649
21,814
136
I think it is preferable to let other nations live in peace without the worry they are being spied on.
You aren't answering the question. Other nations will continue to spy on the US, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, regardless of the US's actions. Do you find it preferable for the US to unilaterally disarm itself in the realm of intelligence gathering and if so, why?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
71,649
21,814
136
Cant wait to see what else snowden releases. Now you guys know why they went ape trying to get him back almost to point of bratty hysteria and trying every card in the book.
I think releases like this by Snowden are petty and stupid. Releasing data on the extent of NSA activities inside of America was incredibly valuable but this is just silliness. It doesn't tell us anything that even a modestly informed person doesn't already know and it inflames relations between countries because they feel like they need to respond.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,408
2
81
It's not necessarily the spying, as was mentioned nations usually spy on other nations, friend or not. It's the degree of spying. There is a difference between reading through the trash being thrown out and controlling the internet and reading every single bit of data going through it.

This is where the USA is going to be most hurt by this NSA scandal too. The world is going to strip away the USA's control of the Internet and put it under the control of a UN group. We've shown we're willing to go full on and abuse it.

Will we be comfortable with a UN committee running the Internet? It'll be just as big a joke as Syria on a human rights commission but that's the future we're headed to thanks to this rampant out of control spying.
France/EU wasn't caught spying on everyone else USA was. ppl can guess all they want about other nations spying but those effected now owe their citizenry reprisal/accountability.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,261
68
86
Do you spy on your friends? Have a camera setup in your neighbors bedroom? Maybe have a wiretap on your parents?

The United States is acting like a bully, and it needs to stop.
This is why I laugh so much at people like you. You take such a naive point of view of the world and you don't even realize it.

Do your friends want to take your job?

Do your friends want to take your technology?

Do your friends want to take your car?

France is no "friend" in the sense of you or I, nor is Germany. Was Germany a friend to all of Europe when they demanded the Euro stay low so they could drive their export economy faster, undercutting everybody else in Europe?

International geopolitical and economic movements are far beyond your simplistic world view. You think in a black/white world.

As was said above, they spy on us just as much as we spy on them, we just do it better.

How do you think France got the plans to a nuke when the US wouldn't give it to them?

ROFL, you people crack me up.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,261
68
86
France/EU wasn't caught spying on everyone else USA was. ppl can guess all they want about other nations spying but those effected now owe their citizenry reprisal/accountability.
So because they weren't caught by some douchebag wannabe libertopian doesn't mean they don't do it. Get over yourself you simpleton.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,261
68
86
You aren't answering the question. Other nations will continue to spy on the US, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, regardless of the US's actions. Do you find it preferable for the US to unilaterally disarm itself in the realm of intelligence gathering and if so, why?
That's what libertopians want. Ron Paul thinks that if we do that then everybody will be our friends and we will sit around a campfire holding hands and singing songs. Nobody would ever try to take what is ours.

The utterly simplistic and naive viewpoint that people like Texashiker have of the world is simply astounding and very troubling. These are the people who actually vote when they can't even see the 2nd order of effect their votes have. They think that if you throw a rock into a calm pond it never makes a wave.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,812
192
106
This is why I laugh so much at people like you. You take such a naive point of view of the world and you don't even realize it.

Do your friends want to take your job?

Do your friends want to take your technology?

Do your friends want to take your car?

France is no "friend" in the sense of you or I, nor is Germany. Was Germany a friend to all of Europe when they demanded the Euro stay low so they could drive their export economy faster, undercutting everybody else in Europe?
I would like to see France steal my truck.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
36,361
10,208
136
What's more probable?

1) The French will not ever talk to the US until it can somehow verify that the US is not spying on them or any other EU member whatsoever.

2) The French will wait a little bit for the totally unsurprising "revelation" that allies spy on each other to blow over then quietly go back to business as usual foreign relations.
 

Nintendesert

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2010
7,761
5
0
I think what's more probable is that the Europeans will finally be able to wrestle away control of the Internet from the US over this.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,802
13,943
136
Gotta love it. The next time Holland opens his mouth, the usual ravers will probably condemn him as an evil socialist cheese eating surrender monkey.

Where's that "Hell Yea! Merricuh!" spirit, anyway? Feeling guilty about the headset y'all were wearing in the wake of 9/11?

It's what you asked for, what you demanded- more Security! Pertekt Merricuh! Forget the rules, this is War! There might be a Terrarist! under every rock! They'll take the baby Jesus!

Might try to consider the unintended (for you) consequences of thinking with the heads of your dicks, as usual.
 

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