French people in Paris are "stunned" by the Iraqi people's response to US troops

[AndrewR]

From the BBC:

"BBC correspondent Emma Jane Kirby, in Paris, says that many French people, who believed this was an illegal and hot-headed war, have been stunned by the welcome American forces received in Baghdad on Wednesday."
Rest of the story.

Here's another gem: "French media have warned that President Chirac is now threatened with isolation on the international stage."

Gee, ya think? I mean, he was only mildly wrong, right?

 

[Moonbeam]

I always like it when some dodo of a reporter speaks for a whole society. 'They were "stunned"' Wow, fancy that.

Reality was turned upsiode down today when three hundred cheering Iraqis without the good sense to be looting came before cameras and hit Saddam's statue's head with their shoes. The nation of France looked on in stunned by the site. Who could have predicted that people tortured by brutal dictatorship for 30 plus years would have had the energy even to clap much less turn out in the hundreds to cheer. Today we see one for the record book. It's just amazing, stunning even.

 

[HappyPuppy]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I always like it when some dodo of a reporter speaks for a whole society. 'They were "stunned"' Wow, fancy that.

Reality was turned upsiode down today when three hundred cheering Iraqis without the good sense to be looting came before cameras and hit Saddam's statue's head with their shoes. The nation of France looked on in stunned by the site. Who could have predicted that people tortured by brutal dictatorship for 30 plus years would have had the energy even to clap much less turn out in the hundreds to cheer. Today we see one for the record book. It's just amazing, stunning even.

So, you are saying that this makes you cry with happiness or sadness? I can't tell from your post.

 

[flavio]

In other news many Iraqis continue to shoot at American soldiers in celebration. Other families welcome the opportunity to offer Kurdish invaders some tasty treats.

 

[Rogue]

It's typical Moonieness at work. Confusion and conflicting statements. He's just really trying to get under your skin. You've taken the first step by questioning him on his intent.

 

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I always like it when some dodo of a reporter speaks for a whole society. 'They were "stunned"' Wow, fancy that.

Actually nowhere in that article does it make that statement that she speaks for a whole society moonbeam.

I won't batter you tonight moonbeam, as I can see you are so totally bummed because you finally realized that Bush really IS smarter than you are. That must be a crushing blow.

Pleasant dreams.

 

[Quixotic]

Heh, I don't know what Moonbeam's usual stance on this topic is, but do things have to be so black and white? Too many people assume there is an absolute truth to everything, when in fact, life only comes in shades of gray.

Originally posted by: HappyPuppy

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I always like it when some dodo of a reporter speaks for a whole society. 'They were "stunned"' Wow, fancy that.

Reality was turned upsiode down today when three hundred cheering Iraqis without the good sense to be looting came before cameras and hit Saddam's statue's head with their shoes. The nation of France looked on in stunned by the site. Who could have predicted that people tortured by brutal dictatorship for 30 plus years would have had the energy even to clap much less turn out in the hundreds to cheer. Today we see one for the record book. It's just amazing, stunning even.

So, you are saying that this makes you cry with happiness or sadness? I can't tell from your post.

 

[Moonbeam]

Happy: So, you are saying that this makes you cry with happiness or sadness? I can't tell from your post.
---------------
Apparently according to some, you've taken the first step in some unknown direction by questioning me, but alas, I don't know what you, in turn mean by 'this'. Does this make me laugh or cry? Does what make me laugh or cry? Does it make me laugh or cry that the French were stunned? My point was to question whether they were stunned or not. Sounds a but naive to me. I wasn't stunned and for the reasons I suggested. 1. the numbers that cheered were rather small and that was commented on by the media. 2. Many more were looting or shooting. 3. Why would not people who have had to live under Saddam not be overjoyed at his removal. The point of the thread, just guessing, is to disrespect the French by suggesting they were stunned. Lets see if a poll of the French says they were stunned, not some reporter possibly with an ax to grind.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: flavio
In other news many Iraqis continue to shoot at American soldiers in celebration. Other families welcome the opportunity to offer Kurdish invaders some tasty treats.

In other news forces are being welcomed at cities all through the north with cheers, one town's resdients even led forces to a stockpile of Al Samouds hidden behind their soccer stadium....

Random acts of resistance still continue, while the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's celebrate their freedom..

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Happy: So, you are saying that this makes you cry with happiness or sadness? I can't tell from your post.
---------------
Apparently according to some, you've taken the first step in some unknown direction by questioning me, but alas, I don't know what you, in turn mean by 'this'. Does this make me laugh or cry? Does what make me laugh or cry? Does it make me laugh or cry that the French were stunned? My point was to question whether they were stunned or not. Sounds a but naive to me. I wasn't stunned and for the reasons I suggested. 1. the numbers that cheered were rather small and that was commented on by the media. 2. Many more were looting or shooting. 3. Why would not people who have had to live under Saddam not be overjoyed at his removal. The point of the thread, just guessing, is to disrespect the French by suggesting they were stunned. Lets see if a poll of the French says they were stunned, not some reporter possibly with an ax to grind.

1. It's amusing how only this reporter possibly has an axe to grind. All of the other reporters who are critical of the administration, or Republicans in general, or President Bush in particular, or who bring up negative reports of the war are perfectly unbiased. Fascinating.

2. The numbers that have been cheering are far from small. Watch TV. Look at images from Kirkuk, Mosul, Baghdad, al Nasiriya, Basrah, Najaf, and towns in between and here and there. Small numbers? Perhaps if you've been living under an oppressive regime for over a couple decades you'd be a little timid about handling newfound freedom. But then again, maybe you just know what's best for the Iraqi people, like good ol' Uncle Saddam.

3. Of course there's still people shooting and blowing themselves up. Remember those torture chambers found recently in numerous locations (note: they were not hastily constructed by the Coalition)? Those torturers have much to lose, namely their lives, if they stop resisting and attempt to blend into the population they were formerly terrorizing.

4. Why would the French not expect the Iraqis to be overjoyed at their liberation? Maybe you've briefly woken up from your altered state, but there are still millions who fail to understand that this is a liberation of the Iraqi people. The French in particular, Chirac specifically, saw nothing wrong with the Iraqi regime. After all, they put the French-made Roland missiles to good use in shooting down Coalition aircraft.

5. Anti-war people possibly being naive? Oh, heavens, no! Cannot be! You mean, Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?

 

[Quixotic]

Originally posted by: AndrewR1. It's amusing how only this reporter possibly has an axe to grind. All of the other reporters who are critical of the administration, or Republicans in general, or President Bush in particular, or who bring up negative reports of the war are perfectly unbiased. Fascinating.


4. Why would the French not expect the Iraqis to be overjoyed at their liberation? Maybe you've briefly woken up from your altered state, but there are still millions who fail to understand that this is a liberation of the Iraqi people. The French in particular, Chirac specifically, saw nothing wrong with the Iraqi regime. After all, they put the French-made Roland missiles to good use in shooting down Coalition aircraft.

1. Yes, the media has been particularly bad with maintaining objective coverage. It seems all the coverage has been colored in one way or another, but hey, we all knew that what we see in the media is far from the absolute truth right?

4. It was? I thought it was an attack on WMD That being said, I don't think it's fair to say that Chirac, and any others opposed to the war, "saw nothing wrong with the Iraqi regime." I doubt anyone thought of Sadaam as a nice guy -- it's just that they didn't believe enough evidence had been presented for them to start ousting a regime they didn't like. It's great that the whole ordeal has ended in a relatively happy fashion, but one also has to consider the ramifications in future situations. What is to stop us from raiding North Korea (they must be pretty pissed right now that we didn't take their nuclear threat seriously =P) and every other regime we see something wrong with and want to deal with pre-emptively. It's one of those situations where once you've lowered the bar, a precedent is set for future decisions -- not to mention the possible surreal distopia that could result (think minority report only without the visions and you have a society that takes action pre-emptively to whatever they feel is a threat).

Something else to consider also is that we haven't been consistent with our judgment. We show favoritism to certain dictator-led regimes (Pakistan) while condemning others. That is probably why some anti-war people think our administration had ulterior motives that factored in to the relatively gung-ho attitude towards war (you know, the usual: oil, re-election, etc.), and it could very well be true. So our main focus was to destroy WMD, and a bonus was the liberation of the Iraqi people. By the same token, a more favorable oil position can't be ruled out completely as having never crossed the administration's mind.

I'm sorry if my rant went a little off-topic , but after hearing arguments from both sides, anti-war and pro-war, I see way too much dependency on absolute truths when such a concept does not exist. If it did, I'm not sure whether I would be happy or scared. In any case, for the Iraqi people who survived and no longer have to live in fear (at least not in fear of Sadaam) and for the innocents who perished. Often we fail to see the importance of one measly life when we look at the greater picture (kind of like the scenario where the killing of one innocent child saves the lives of millions, or one where one more death is fine when a hundred have already died). Lets not further our injustice to them and at least pay our respects while we celebrate (for now at least, barring potential ramifications) the good we've done.

 

[Moonbeam]

To clarify:

1. It's amusing how only this reporter possibly has an axe to grind. All of the other reporters who are critical of the administration, or Republicans in general, or President Bush in particular, or who bring up negative reports of the war are perfectly unbiased. Fascinating.
----------------------
No implication was made that only this reporter had an axe to grind. We were discussion an article by this reporter not some other one.

2. The numbers that have been cheering are far from small. Watch TV. Look at images from Kirkuk, Mosul, Baghdad, al Nasiriya, Basrah, Najaf, and towns in between and here and there. Small numbers? Perhaps if you've been living under an oppressive regime for over a couple decades you'd be a little timid about handling newfound freedom. But then again, maybe you just know what's best for the Iraqi people, like good ol' Uncle Saddam.
-------------------------------------
The article was based on older data, no, on the statue episode of several hundred?

3. Of course there's still people shooting and blowing themselves up. Remember those torture chambers found recently in numerous locations (note: they were not hastily constructed by the Coalition)? Those torturers have much to lose, namely their lives, if they stop resisting and attempt to blend into the population they were formerly terrorizing.
------------------------
But of course. there may also still be many who feel they will be killed by their own if they don't fight.

4. Why would the French not expect the Iraqis to be overjoyed at their liberation? Maybe you've briefly woken up from your altered state, but there are still millions who fail to understand that this is a liberation of the Iraqi people. The French in particular, Chirac specifically, saw nothing wrong with the Iraqi regime. After all, they put the French-made Roland missiles to good use in shooting down Coalition aircraft.
--------------
Unfortunately my altered state is in your mind. I have always favored the removal of Saddam and fully expected joy at the event. I diffed only with method and with my interpretation of our real motivation which had freeing the people of Iraq as a late and ultimately popular lie as to our purpose. I, unlike you, can't speak for millions of French and don't pretend to myself that I can. Doubtless there are many deluded by the reality in Iraq. Who and in what numbers is much more difficult to say. I oppose arms sales to dictators, by the way.

5. Anti-war people possibly being naive? Oh, heavens, no! Cannot be! You mean, Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?
------------------------------------
If the war has proved anything so far it is that Saddam wasn't even a threat as far as WMD even when we directly attacked him much less if we had left him alone. The war has never been about WMD, freeing the people of Iraq or any of the other tired excuses the Bush league trotted out and failed to ignite. The war has always been about a a vision of a new American century.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: flavio
In other news many Iraqis continue to shoot at American soldiers in celebration. Other families welcome the opportunity to offer Kurdish invaders some tasty treats.

In other news forces are being welcomed at cities all through the north with cheers, one town's resdients even led forces to a stockpile of Al Samouds hidden behind their soccer stadium....

Random acts of resistance still continue, while the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's celebrate their freedom..

In other news....still haven't seen any figures on what the "majority" feel.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: flavio
In other news many Iraqis continue to shoot at American soldiers in celebration. Other families welcome the opportunity to offer Kurdish invaders some tasty treats.

In other news forces are being welcomed at cities all through the north with cheers, one town's resdients even led forces to a stockpile of Al Samouds hidden behind their soccer stadium....

Random acts of resistance still continue, while the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's celebrate their freedom..

In other news....still haven't seen any figures on what the "majority" feel.

In other news, I had a meatball sub sandwich for lunch.

Come on, you two...place nice

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

If the war has proved anything so far it is that Saddam wasn't even a threat as far as WMD even when we directly attacked him much less if we had left him alone. The war has never been about WMD, freeing the people of Iraq or any of the other tired excuses the Bush league trotted out and failed to ignite. The war has always been about a a vision of a new American century.

Nice conspiracy theory. Let me guess, u think Hoffa's buried in the end zone of Giants Stadium too.

 

[flavio]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: Alistar7

Originally posted by: flavio
In other news many Iraqis continue to shoot at American soldiers in celebration. Other families welcome the opportunity to offer Kurdish invaders some tasty treats.

In other news forces are being welcomed at cities all through the north with cheers, one town's resdients even led forces to a stockpile of Al Samouds hidden behind their soccer stadium....

Random acts of resistance still continue, while the overwhelming majority of Iraqi's celebrate their freedom..

In other news....still haven't seen any figures on what the "majority" feel.

In other news, I had a meatball sub sandwich for lunch.

Come on, you two...place nice

How was the meatball sub? I got one to go the other day and almost all the cheese was stuck to the tin foil and not on the sandwich.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: flavio

Originally posted by: conjur

In other news, I had a meatball sub sandwich for lunch.

Come on, you two...place nice

How was the meatball sub? I got one to go the other day and almost all the chees was stuck to the tin foil and not on the sandwich.

It rocked! Ate it there...but, even the to-go ones come out unscathed. Bob (the guy I always talk to there), is a master

 

[Stark]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
To clarify:

1. It's amusing how only this reporter possibly has an axe to grind. All of the other reporters who are critical of the administration, or Republicans in general, or President Bush in particular, or who bring up negative reports of the war are perfectly unbiased. Fascinating.
----------------------
No implication was made that only this reporter had an axe to grind. We were discussion an article by this reporter not some other one.

2. The numbers that have been cheering are far from small. Watch TV. Look at images from Kirkuk, Mosul, Baghdad, al Nasiriya, Basrah, Najaf, and towns in between and here and there. Small numbers? Perhaps if you've been living under an oppressive regime for over a couple decades you'd be a little timid about handling newfound freedom. But then again, maybe you just know what's best for the Iraqi people, like good ol' Uncle Saddam.
-------------------------------------
The article was based on older data, no, on the statue episode of several hundred?

3. Of course there's still people shooting and blowing themselves up. Remember those torture chambers found recently in numerous locations (note: they were not hastily constructed by the Coalition)? Those torturers have much to lose, namely their lives, if they stop resisting and attempt to blend into the population they were formerly terrorizing.
------------------------
But of course. there may also still be many who feel they will be killed by their own if they don't fight.

4. Why would the French not expect the Iraqis to be overjoyed at their liberation? Maybe you've briefly woken up from your altered state, but there are still millions who fail to understand that this is a liberation of the Iraqi people. The French in particular, Chirac specifically, saw nothing wrong with the Iraqi regime. After all, they put the French-made Roland missiles to good use in shooting down Coalition aircraft.
--------------
Unfortunately my altered state is in your mind. I have always favored the removal of Saddam and fully expected joy at the event. I diffed only with method and with my interpretation of our real motivation which had freeing the people of Iraq as a late and ultimately popular lie as to our purpose. I, unlike you, can't speak for millions of French and don't pretend to myself that I can. Doubtless there are many deluded by the reality in Iraq. Who and in what numbers is much more difficult to say. I oppose arms sales to dictators, by the way.

5. Anti-war people possibly being naive? Oh, heavens, no! Cannot be! You mean, Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?
------------------------------------
If the war has proved anything so far it is that Saddam wasn't even a threat as far as WMD even when we directly attacked him much less if we had left him alone. The war has never been about WMD, freeing the people of Iraq or any of the other tired excuses the Bush league trotted out and failed to ignite. The war has always been about a a vision of a new American century.

who farted?

 

[Moonbeam]

who farted?
----------------
Generally speaking, to be the one to bring up the subject clearly implies that you nose more about yourself than you're willing to admit.

 

[etech]

Belfast Telegraph Friday, April 11, 2003

"...
Opponents of the war began to reposition themselves. The Vatican offered to help in the rebuilding of Iraq and in the distribution of aid. The French President, Jacques Chirac, said: "France, like every democracy, welcomes the fall of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, and hopes there will be a rapid and effective end to the fighting." French voters have evidently been stunned by the welcome American forces received in Baghdad on Wednesday and the French media have warned that Mr Chirac ? the "king of peace without a crown", according to Libération ? is now threatened with isolation on the international stage. Tomorrow the French leader will meet the other two main European opponents of the war, Germany's Gerhard Schröder and Russia's Vladimir Putin, in St Petersburg.
..."

 

[flavio]

That doesn't sound like "repositioning" really.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: flavio
That doesn't sound like "repositioning" really.

No they just went from opposing any measure that even provided Saddam even an ultimatum, let alone the possibility of his removal, to "France, like every democracy, welcomes the fall of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship". Funny they didn't welcome our efforts to accomplish this goal, they blocked them. Nobody blames them, they just went with the money...

 

[Moonbeam]

It just amazes me that a people who deny so vehmently that we are in this war for the oil are so quick to attribute similar motives to the French. We must be projecting, I guess.

 

[KMurphy]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
It just amazes me that a people who deny so vehmently that we are in this war for the oil are so quick to attribute similar motives to the French. We must be projecting, I guess.

If we were in this for oil, it would have been a whole hell of a lot cheaper to just buy it than to mass an assault on Iraq to take it over. Why would we take the tougher route to get oil versus buying it outright? All we would have to do is lift sanctions which I'm sure the UN would have approved.

 

[Moonbeam]

KMurphy, I wasn't saying it's about oil.