Free Trade is good for the USA?

[GeezerMan]

Good article on free trade.
I laughed 20 years ago when I first heard the debate on Nafta, and how it would be a plus for the USA. Ross Perot was right about it sucking jobs away. Nothing wrong with fair trade, but free trade on a unlevel playing ground is not free. And here we are, in a bad economy, negotiating more free trade. As with any political deal, just follow the money.

"It's the transnationals versus the domestic producers and domestic manufacturers,"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/25/free-trade-agreements-lobbying_n_906623.html

 

[crownjules]

A lot of the welfare state was created because of jobs being outsourced. You need to provide your lower classes with labor jobs that deliver job satisfaction. Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or banker. Nor would there be enough job supply if everyone was capable of becoming those things. So now they're forced to either work menial jobs at the poverty level that don't provide any benefits or they can suck off the government teat. The latter of which just plays into the hands of the elite since that money inevitably gets spent on necessities and consumer products.

 

[DesiPower]

I don’t think we can do anything about it now, it’s just too late. You need to visit countries like China, India or Brazil; it’s not just about the cheap labor anymore. The wheel has been set into motion; they have the HUGE necessary infrastructure and process in place to take over the entire world's BPO. It’s not about the competitive advantage in terms of salary or anything anymore. Today if you need those things done in a smart and efficient manner that’s where you HAVE to go, US workers cannot compete anymore even if the salaries become the same. We in this country keep worrying about minorities and bring down overall benchmark of our education system just so that everyone can keep up. We are holding the talented individuals back buy worrying about the dumb people. We are reducing the collective IQ of our society. All the while these countries a continuously raising the bar so that the overall society can progress, they are not worrying about the people who are left behind.

It’s over, this country is over, slowly and surely the remaining resources and wealth will be distributes to these countries, companies will wind down their business in US and carte to the new customer base in the BRIC countries or just close down for good. US in coming years will be reduced to a insignificant country struggling with its civil unrest resulting from lack of jobs and from the lack of the govt's ability to provide for its people...

 

[DesiPower]

A lot of the welfare state was created because of jobs being outsourced. You need to provide your lower classes with labor jobs that deliver job satisfaction. Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or banker. Nor would there be enough job supply if everyone was capable of becoming those things. So now they're forced to either work menial jobs at the poverty level that don't provide any benefits or they can suck off the government teat. The latter of which just plays into the hands of the elite since that money inevitably gets spent on necessities and consumer products.

Protectionism might be the answer but even if it creates jobs, how will do it? welfare state has made lot of people lazy and they do not want to work anymore, one example is the farm work experiment in Georgia.
Even if people get off their rear ends and work, the politicians will never let protectionism happen to begin with, they will be bough out by countries which know that there is still lot of wealth left in this country to leech

 

[yllus]

Free trade with nations with an equitable level of human/worker rights and maybe even a roughly equal quality of life is ultimately a good thing. Going fully protectionist is the short road to oblivion, especially today with the "information economy" in place. Your domestic manufacturers 100% will take advantage of the lessened need to innovate and compete, and will likely raise prices as well. In the meantime, your nation falls behind as the need to compete with the rest of the world is artificially lowered.

Free trade with nations like China... I find it hard lately to come up with reasons that this is a good thing. It's certainly helped China in raising tens of millions out of poverty and probably have a positive affect on freedoms there, but over here, not so much.

 

[a777pilot]

DSAMN! You are right!

It's way past time for Smoot–Hawley II.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Obama, despite harsh criticism from his labor union supporters, understands the benefits of free trade with select partners:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2125134

Free trade with nations like China... I find it hard lately to come up with reasons that this is a good thing. It's certainly helped China in raising tens of millions out of poverty and probably have a positive affect on freedoms there, but over here, not so much.

We do not have a free trade agreement with the communist rebel held regions of China, nor will we, as that would destroy our manufacturing base and likely damage their agricultural capabilities. A free trade agreement with Free China (Taiwan), could be beneficial, if one prevents goods manufactured on the mainland by firms based in Formosa from being traded freely.

 

[JS80]

Protectionism makes everyone as a whole worse off fucking idiots

 

[novasatori]

its also not just bad for developed countries but the countries that are preyed upon like Jamaica, where you can no longer get domestic milk, most of the milk is imported and in powder form

In negotiations with the World Bank and the IMF, the Jamaican Government was forced to agree to liberalize its economy. Duties on imported milk products were slashed from 100 per cent to just 5 per cent… This led to a steady increase in dairy imports – in particular of powdered milk from the European Union – and Jamaica’s farmers just couldn’t compete with European dairy farmers on production costs.

These subsidised European milk imports have had a profound impact on the growth of Jamaica’s dairy industry. In the 1960s, there were 4,000 small farmers. By 1996, following the arrival of cheap subsidised milk products, this had shrunk to 470. And by 2002, there were just 90 left.

http://www.tve.org/lifeonline/index.cfm?aid=1438

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Good article on free trade.
I laughed 20 years ago when I first heard the debate on Nafta, and how it would be a plus for the USA. Ross Perot was right about it sucking jobs away. Nothing wrong with fair trade, but free trade on a unlevel playing ground is not free. And here we are, in a bad economy, negotiating more free trade. As with any political deal, just follow the money.

"It's the transnationals versus the domestic producers and domestic manufacturers,"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/25/free-trade-agreements-lobbying_n_906623.html

In comparison, NAFTA was nothing...it was GATT that killed us.

 

[GeezerMan]

Notice how many freshmen pubs campaigned on no free trade, then flipped their vote. Time to look for secret bank accounts, or undercover video of illegal sex acts.

 

[GeezerMan]

Protectionism makes everyone as a whole worse off fucking idiots

Yes, anything taken to the extreme is bad.
Pure protectionism would have us still driving Model Ts.
Pure free trade with countries that have near slave labor wages leads to desctruction as well..

 

[Acanthus]

Protectionism makes everyone as a whole worse off fucking idiots

This is true if you are talking about protectionism in the sense that you protect american companies from competition on otherwise equal ground. You are then removing incentive to innovate and in the long run damaging your ability to export as well as import.

In the case of China and India this is NOT what is going on. Both of those nations have significantly higher tariffs on inbound american goods.

China => USA ~ 4%
USA => China ~ 40%

Then add in unequal wages, safety regulations, and currency manipulation exacerbating the issues, and you have a recipe for massive domestic job loss in the US.

 

[GeezerMan]

This is true if you are talking about protectionism in the sense that you protect american companies from competition on otherwise equal ground. You are then removing incentive to innovate and in the long run damaging your ability to export as well as import.

In the case of China and India this is NOT what is going on. Both of those nations have significantly higher tariffs on inbound american goods.

China => USA ~ 4%
USA => China ~ 40%

Then add in unequal wages, safety regulations, and currency manipulation exacerbating the issues, and you have a recipe for massive domestic job loss in the US.

Yes...This video shows Chinese workers actually ducking while sitting in a part be stamped by a massive press. Could you imagine what OSHA would say?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhdH1ezM7To

 

[Infohawk]

In the long run it is but it's happening too fast now and is harming rich societies. Countries like China have protectionism. We should reciprocate, especially since they are totalitarian. And generally someone would be worried that China could raise tariffs against the US, but does the US export anything except stolen IP? Who cares?

 

[dank69]

In the long run it is but it's happening too fast now and is harming rich societies. Countries like China have protectionism. We should reciprocate, especially since they are totalitarian. And generally someone would be worried that China could raise tariffs against the US, but does the US export anything except stolen IP? Who cares?

Nevermind the fact that the US depends on cheap imported goods at this point.

 

[werepossum]

This is true if you are talking about protectionism in the sense that you protect american companies from competition on otherwise equal ground. You are then removing incentive to innovate and in the long run damaging your ability to export as well as import.

In the case of China and India this is NOT what is going on. Both of those nations have significantly higher tariffs on inbound american goods.

China => USA ~ 4%
USA => China ~ 40%

Then add in unequal wages, safety regulations, and currency manipulation exacerbating the issues, and you have a recipe for massive domestic job loss in the US.

Quite right. Even countries that have roughly similar regulations and labor costs can game the system - for instance, socialized medicine provides a more competitive corporate environment because health care costs are shifted directly to the consumer via government, and a government can subsidize a particular industry until its competitors go broke, giving it a national near-monopoly for a time. But these things can be fought on a case-by-case basis, and the net result is likely more prosperity for both nations.

However, our current situation is an abomination. Clinton (with very little opposition from the Democrats and virtually none from Republicans) gave away our advantage in technology. Both parties have negotiated away our advantage as the world's largest consumer market - when we had the power to dictate favorable terms, instead out of a combination of "social justice" and lobbying pressures we intentionally negotiated terms that favored other nations. That Chinese tariff imbalance is a perfect example.

 

[werepossum]

Nevermind the fact that the US depends on cheap imported goods at this point.

The US also depends on borrowing money to pay for those cheap imported goods. At some point, we'll have lost everything of value and will no longer be able to borrow money to support our habit.

No nation can long consume more wealth than it produces.