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France, Portugal deny airspace to Bolivian president's plane because of Snowden

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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The U.S. appears to be making use of its considerable political muscle in an attempt to haul Snowden in front of an American judge. I think this is a pretty despicable thing to do to another nation's leader.

Reuters - Bolivia says Morales' plane diverted, apparently over Snowden

(Reuters) - Bolivia said President Evo Morales' plane was forced to land in Austria on Tuesday after France and Portugal refused air permits, apparently because they suspected it was carrying Edward Snowden, the former U.S. spy agency contractor wanted by Washington on espionage charges.

Bolivian Foreign Minister David Choquehuanca furiously accused France and Portugal of putting the leftist Morales' life at risk and insisted that Snowden was not on Morales' plane.

Choquehuanca told reporters that Portugal and France had abruptly canceled the air permits, forcing the unscheduled Vienna stopover as Morales was returning on a Bolivian government plane from Russia.

"They say it was due to technical issues, but after getting explanations from some authorities we found that there appeared to be some unfounded suspicions that Mr. Snowden was on the plane ... We don't know who invented this lie," he said.

"We want to express our displeasure because this has put the president's life at risk."

While attending an energy conference in Russia this week, the socialist Morales said he would consider granting asylum to Snowden if requested.

"It is possible that they want to intimidate us due to the statement made by President Morales that we would analyze an asylum request from Mr. Snowden," said Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra.

"We have the suspicion that they (France and Portugal) were used by a foreign power, in this case the United States, as a way of intimidating the Bolivian state and President Evo Morales."

He said Italy had also denied permission for Morales' plane to enter its air space.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,583
431
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Uh, even worse - Austria demanded and then went ahead and searched the Bolivian presidential jet. I hope bringing in Snowden is worth upsetting a continent that's already not too fond of "Western imperialists"!

RT - ‘Act of aggression’: Bolivia to file UN complaint over airspace blockade

‘An act of aggression and violation of international law’ is how Bolivia’s UN envoy described Austria’s decision to search the Bolivian presidential jet for NSA leaker Edward Snowden. The envoy has pledged to make an official complaint to the UN.

Envoy Sacha Llorentty Soliz told press in New York that he had no doubt the decision to search the plane originated from the US.

Austrian authorities grounded Bolivian President Evo Morales’ plane in Vienna early on Wednesday morning due to suspicions that NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden was on board. Morales refuted speculation that Snowden had stowed away on the plane and allowed authorities to conduct a search.

"Our colleagues from the airport had a look and can give assurances that no one is on board who is not a Bolivian citizen," Austrian Deputy Chancellor Michael Spindelegger told press, saying rumors that Snowden might be on board were untrue.

The move to detain the presidential plane triggered a wave of furious rhetoric from Latin American leaders who alleged it had been “kidnapped by imperialism.”
 
Apr 27, 2012
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obama should be ashamed of himself for doing this. To put the life of an innocent man at risk in order to catch an American Patriot is just disgusting.

I won't be surprised if obamas supporters defend him.
 

nf4m

Member
Apr 19, 2013
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europe takes out its anger over NSA spying on snowden's airspace.

democracy or something.

the popcorn is delicious. all the warnings were true. ;)
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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This kind of thing is routine when one country is attempting to apprehend a fugitive in another country. There's a reciprocity. If they don't help us, we don't help them when the time comes. We've done the same thing for these countries in the past. The fact that it's Snowden doesn't make any difference. It could be anyone suspected of a crime.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
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This kind of thing is routine when one country is attempting to apprehend a fugitive in another country. There's a reciprocity. If they don't help us, we don't help them when the time comes. We've done the same thing for these countries in the past. The fact that it's Snowden doesn't make any difference. It could be anyone suspected of a crime.
I wasn't aware that the planes of national Presidents were routinely boarded and searched.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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I wasn't aware that the planes of national Presidents were routinely boarded and searched.
That I'm sure isn't common. I don't know the extent to which the particulars of what these foreign countries are doing to help us was directed by us or them. I'm sure we asked for help in apprehending Snowden. However, I would agree that detaining the Bolivian president's plane does sound is poor diplomacy.
 

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
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uh, how is this putting the guys life at risk? Is their plane really that shitty that having to land and take off is endangering his life?
 

Braznor

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2005
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That I'm sure isn't common. I don't know the extent to which the particulars of what these foreign countries are doing to help us was directed by us or them. I'm sure we asked for help in apprehending Snowden. However, I would agree that detaining the Bolivian president's plane does sound is poor diplomacy.
You never heard of diplomatic immunity?
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
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I wasn't aware that the planes of national Presidents were routinely boarded and searched.
No, but it's also quite common to deny airspace to national presidents and other leaders.
Since the cold war, Bush was the first president that was allowed to fly directly through Russia rather than wasting gas by flying around Russia like previous presidents had to do.
I remember a big deal being made about this about a decade ago.

Just because you're president doesn't automatically mean you have a right to fly your civilian aircraft entourage in another country's airspace. ;)
 

lothar

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2000
6,674
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You never heard of diplomatic immunity?
Umm...Diplomatic immunity doesn't mean you as President of "whatever nation" have a right to fly your civilian aircraft entourage in another country's airspace if that country says no.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
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This kind of thing is routine when one country is attempting to apprehend a fugitive in another country. There's a reciprocity. If they don't help us, we don't help them when the time comes. We've done the same thing for these countries in the past. The fact that it's Snowden doesn't make any difference. It could be anyone suspected of a crime.
There's reciprocity? So if Bolivia, or any other nation for that matter, thought Air Force One was carrying someone they deemed to be a traitor they could force it to land, search it and take Obama into custody?

I honestly don't know what Obama's doing going after Snowden. All they're doing is making a martyr. The calls for Snowden to be "brought to justice" are coming from the people he rightfully screwed over.. and essentially no one else. He's quickly becoming a folk hero.
 

Jimzz

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2012
4,389
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There's reciprocity? So if Bolivia, or any other nation for that matter, thought Air Force One was carrying someone they deemed to be a traitor they could force it to land, search it and take Obama into custody?

I honestly don't know what Obama's doing going after Snowden. All they're doing is making a martyr. The calls for Snowden to be "brought to justice" are coming from the people he rightfully screwed over.. and essentially no one else. He's quickly becoming a folk hero.

This.

Talk about a international Streisand effect. The more this happens the more its in the news.
 

Newbian

Lifer
Aug 24, 2008
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Bolivia's relations with the United States have deteriorated since Morales became president in 2006. He expelled the U.S. ambassador and U.S. drug agency officials from the coca-growing Andean country in 2008 and has accused Washington of trying to destabilize his government.
Sounds like someone started it. ;)
 

Smoblikat

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2011
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Lets just think about this for a second, if the NSA was doing nothing wrong then why would they be trying to capture the person that exposed their efforts? CLEARLY they are up to no good and need to silence those that know about it.
 

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
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Lets just think about this for a second, if the NSA was doing nothing wrong then why would they be trying to capture the person that exposed their efforts? CLEARLY they are up to no good and need to silence those that know about it.
Is that even a serious question? What kind of message would the US be showing if they let a traitor/spy commit espionage and then just walk away with no punishment?
 

unokitty

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2012
3,349
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Is that even a serious question? What kind of message would the US be showing if they let a traitor/spy commit espionage and then just walk away with no punishment?

Snowden is not the first government whistle blower. Nor is he the first to be accused of espionage. For example, take Danial Ellserg and the Pentagon Papers.

The Pentagon Papers were first brought to the attention of the public on the front page of The New York Times in 1971. A 1996 article in The New York Times said that the Pentagon Papers "demonstrated, among other things, that the Lyndon Baines Johnson Administration had systematically lied, not only to the public but also to Congress, about a subject of transcendent national interest and significance"

... The most damaging revelations in the papers revealed that four administrations, from Truman to Johnson, had misled the public regarding their intentions. For example, the John F. Kennedy administration had planned to overthrow South Vietnamese leader Ngo Dinh Diem before his death in a November 1963 coup. President Johnson had decided to expand the war while promising "we seek no wider war" during his 1964 presidential campaign, including plans to bomb North Vietnam well before the 1964 Election....
Daniel Ellsberg, who gave the 'classified' Pentagon Papers to the New York Times is now recognized as a hero.

The FBI illegally taped Ellsberg's phone and Nixon's plumbers burglarized several offices seeking information about him.

All espionage charges against Ellsberg were dismissed.

Time and truth will determine whether or not Snowden is also a hero.

But this much is known, 50,000 Americans died in a war in Viet Nam that the politicians systemically mislead the American people and the American Congress about.

When the truth was revealed, the government resorted to illegal wire taps and break ins... And charging Ellsberg with espionage.

Believe what you want. But I don't believe that dishonest politicians should be protected by so called 'National Security' considerations.

And I don't think that any more American lives should be spent to protect lying politicians.

Uno
Sentry Dog Handler
US Army, '69-'71
 
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bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
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Snowden is not the first government whistle blower.
Except he's not a whistle blower. He took the job with the intent of exposing classified information. There's nothing illegal about what the government is doing. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make you a whistleblower.

You can't just let people who do things like this walk away. It sends a pretty powerful message to anyone else who might think they can take a job to leak classified information.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,583
431
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uh, how is this putting the guys life at risk? Is their plane really that shitty that having to land and take off is endangering his life?
They could have not had enough fuel to divert and land somewhere else jet-capable safely. It's a low risk, but a risk that nations don't spring on other nations' Air Force One planes while they're already in the air.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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You never heard of diplomatic immunity?
I have indeed. It certainly protects the president from arrest. Does it automatically preclude temporary detention of his plane to search for fugitives who are not otherwise immune?

I'm actually not sure. Not an expert on diplomatic immunity.
 
Apr 27, 2012
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Except he's not a whistle blower. He took the job with the intent of exposing classified information. There's nothing illegal about what the government is doing. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make you a whistleblower.

You can't just let people who do things like this walk away. It sends a pretty powerful message to anyone else who might think they can take a job to leak classified information.
The government is violating the 4th Amendment and they should be exposed for this. He exposed information mostly known by everyone.
 

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